ing to the discussion of this great question as involving in it the most serious consequences to this mighty empire, and conferring, according to the wishes of the friend or foe, the principles of increased strength or of certain disorganization. It is not surprising, therefore, that any man should approach this question with feelings of the greatest alarm; it is not surprising that he should almost shrink from the responsibility of deciding upon the fate of millions; as for himself, he could truly state that he was haunted with the apprehensions of what may be the consequences, whichever way the question may be decided. In no point of view could he contemplate a result which is safe for the country, honourable for the legislature, or satisfactory to the parties interested. On the one side, he feared to perpetuate a system, which is called by some, and is felt by a great body, as a system of injustice against millions of fellow-countrymen; on the other, he feared to introduce a change, which has been regarded by the best and wisest men of England as fatal to the constitution and liberties of this great empire. On the one side, he feared to impede a prosperity which after centuries of misery and bloodshed, is predicted for Ireland, by the adoption of a new system; on the other hand, that the upsetting of every thing established in that country, will lead to consequences by no means calculated to promote its welfare. On the one side, he dreaded to have a question unsettled, stimulating all the passions of the multitude, provoking them to acts of outrage and bloodshed, disturbing the tranquillity, and leaving the people a prey to any mischievous agitators who may work upon their passions for their own selfish purposes; on the other hand, he dreaded the introduction of a system which will consolidate the strength of a party in Ireland, adverse to all the established institutions, hostile to the established religion, full of rancour for past triumphs, and ready to take advantage of the first opportunity to mark their vengance, and to enjoy their triumphs in return. When such conflicting consequences, arising from the nature of the Catholic Question, are poised and balanced in the state, it is no pleasant duty to have the decision imposed upon you; most willingly would he avoid the performance of the duty, for in truth the responsibility is most awful and alarming; and, without affectation, he could assure the House, that it had cost VOL. XIII him many hours of uneasiness and anxiety. Were he convinced that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages; were he convinced that peace and tranquillity, that the oblivion of ancient struggles, that subordination to the laws, that respect for the established institutions of the country, that industry, and in consequence wealth and prosperity, were probable or even possible by concession to the Catholic Claims, he would willingly abandon all the notions which he had so long entertained upon the subject, would expose himself to all the obloquy and all the unpopularity of a change of opinion, and seek for comfort in the prospect of these new advantages for Ireland. But, Sir, I own that I am not so convinced; whatever doubts I entertained before, when relying upon my own weak judgment, and imperfect opportunities of observation, as to the effect produced by the discussion of the Catholic Question upon the people of Ireland, those doubts are confirmed by the evidence and experience of others, much better able to form an opinion upon the subject, whose evidence is now upon the table of the House, and which ought to be read with eagerness by every man interested for the welfare of Ireland. It is, he conceived, a most fortunate circumstance, that the evidence from the committee appointed to inquire into the state of Ireland, is laid before the public at this particular time; it contains a volume of information respecting the condition of the people, their habits and circumstances; respecting the operations of the laws, both local and general; respecting the nature and effect of every institution both public and private, such as never up to this time has been condensed together. In this evidence, an impartial mind will discover, without difficulty, the condition of every class, Church-ofEngland man, Presbyterians and Catholics, pourtrayed by those most qualified to give a description, from constant intercourse; it will lead you into the cabin of the peasant in every part of the country; into the house of the landlord; into the mysterious recesses of the land agent and the tithe proctor; into the halls of justice, whether at assize, quarter sessions, petty sessions, or manor courts; it will lead you into the Protestant church, the Presbyterian meeting-house, and the Catholic chapel; it presents a view of the population in their domestic habits, as labourers, mechanics, and tenants; and details the obstacles D against their improvement, arising not more from their own habits, than from the administration of the laws; it presents a view of the population as part of a political body, influenced by the disabilities which the law has imposed upon a great portion of the people; and it presents a view of the characteristic marks of distinction which the profession of different creeds has stamped respectively upon Protestant and Catholic. of the country there can be no insolence or domination on the one side, no soreness nor irritation on the other; it is in fact, a Catholic population, the habits and pursuits of the people are all Catholic, the common business of life is carried on according to Catholic maxims and Catholic regulations, and unless Mr. O'Connell periodically came down to tell them that they were the most oppressed people in the world, because he could not become a With this mass of information, it will member of Parliament or a judge, they not be difficult to discover the exact effect would not trouble their heads about Cathowhich the Catholic disabilities produce lic Emancipation, as long as they found upon the Catholic population; and he was the causes of their misery and degradation greatly surprised to hear from such com- so much more tangible, so much more in petent witnesses as Mr. O'Connell, Dr. telligible to them, so much more felt in the Doyle and Dr. Kelly, how very little the every-day intercourse of life. But what is great body of the people was affected by the condition of the people? Mr. O'Conthe disqualifying laws. That the greatest nell says, that the condition of the labourwretchedness exists among them, is being classes is so bad, that it is astonishyond doubt; that poverty, that want of employment, insubordination, distrusts in all the established institutions of the country; fraud, perjury and immorality, arising from that distrust, exist to a frightful extent, is beyond all doubt; but that Catholic Emancipation is the cure for these evils, or one which is regarded by the peasantry in any other light than the gratification of religious bigotry, is what these gentlemen have not ventured to assert. Let us for a moment consider the picture which Mr. O'Connell has drawn of the Catholic population in the counties of Cork, Kerry, Limerick and Clare. It is to be remarked first, that he describes the effect of the disqualifying laws of the Catholics to be among the upper classes, discontent at being excluded from certain offices in the state, which lead to honour and profit, and among the lower classes, a soreness and irritation on account of the spirit of domination and superiority exhibited by the Protestants; let us contemplate for an instant the picture which he has given of the population in those four great counties, and see, according to his own statement, how insignificant the operation of such feelings must be, and how perfectly hopeless the repeal of all the disqualifying laws would be, in improving the condition of the people. We must recollect that he describes the Catholic population in the counties of Limerick, Clare and Kerry, compared with the Protestants, as 100 to one; he says, the protestants are universally, in favour of Catholic Emancipation; it is evident, therefore, that in that part ing how they preserve health, there is a administration of the laws by the Catholics themselves, and not the laws, which is the cause of the depraved condition of the people. How else could a law be found useful in Ulster and injurious in Munster? lettings, so it happens not unfrequently, that there are six or seven persons between the proprietor in fee and the actual occupier. But, how does Mr. O'Connell describe the state of society, in which such a state of things is suffered to exist? how does he But, it is right to mention some at least describe the effect of the law passed to of the laws which he condemns, and which check these evils, and the conduct of the have wrought such different results in people towards each other, in the daily in- different parts of the country. In 1817, tercourse of life? In consequence of these a law was passed to regulate the dealsublettings, the spirit of litigation is in- ings between landlord and tenant; the creased, their dealings with one another effect of this law was to give the landlord are frequently complicated, and they are a certain and expeditious process of getinvariably harsh and unfeeling towards ting possession of his land from a tenant each other in pecuniary matters. These under the yearly rent of 50l. who did not appeals to courts of law are numerous, pay his rent, and also to give the occupyand on the most trivial occasions; but ing tenant a cheap and speedy remedy when they do appear the most frightful against the middleman, who had allowed immorality is exhibited. The obligation the head landlord to distrain the ocof an oath is disregarded; the flippant and cupying tenant for rent due by the middistinct swearer is always successful; to dleman. Now, that law is described by have a conscience is an inconvenience, and Mr. O'Connell as leading to murder and parents employ their children, at the ear-insurrection in the south, whilst it is deliest age, to be their witnesses in courts of justice; to get rid, as soon as possible, of the ties of conscience, and to think falsehood and perjury the only means of successful litigation. Mr. O'Connell then proceeds to describe the effect which the laws have had in checking the evil habits of the peasantry in these counties; and no wonder that he is much disappointed in their result. Laws are made to regulate and guide society, to guard against the frailty of human nature, to protect the weak against the strong, and to give a practical evidence of the advantages of order and regularity over force and lawlessness; but, in order to be useful, laws must be kindly administered, and unless there are agents to carry them into execution, it would be just as well to have no laws at all. Such is the unfortunate condition of this part of the country; the material for executing the laws is so bad, that justice is a total stranger to these districts; the laws which have been found good in more favoured parts, are here the very cause of tyranny and oppression. The unfortunate people seem to labour under a political curse; the order of nature is reversed, and the vine-tree is made to produce the thorn, and the figtree to bear the thistle. Mr. O'Connell says, that every act of Parliament passed since the peace, has had the effect of depressing the people, and rendering their condition worse; nor does he confine himself to the laws passed since the peace; he seems totally to forget that it is the scribed by his honourable friend, the member for Louth, as the most important and the most useful law to the lauded interest in the north, which has ever passed the legislature. In another part of his evidence, Mr. O'Connell says, "in his conscience he is thoroughly convinced, that if a society were instituted to discourage virtue, and to countenance vice, it would be ingenious indeed if it had discovered such a system as the Assistant Barristers Court;" but, in other parts of the country, in the north, and in the counties of Leinster, the most honourable testimony is given in favour of this court, and the administration of justice in it is described to be satisfactory to the people who bring their cases before it, honourable to the magistrates presiding, and creditable to the juries who are engaged in it. different to Mr. O'Connell's statement! the barristers are incompetent, the juries corrupt, the witnesses and litigants perjured. Even tithes, the grand cause of discontent in other parts, assume a different complexion in these ill-fated regions. The Protestant clergyman, the owner and proprietor of the tithe, ceases to be an object of hatred, as in other places; but the proctor, who is invariably a Catholic, is merciless and unrelenting, and encounters the double portion of hatred, and often of vengeance, which is due to his Protestant master and to his own exactions. How Such is a small, a very small portion of the evils described by Mr. O'Connell as pervading the counties of Kerry, Cork, Limerick and Clare. He had not men- | tioned a tenth part of the practical misery detailed in his evidence, as a matter of every day occurrence, but it must strike every body, that in a country so circumstanced, the Catholic disabilities are evils of the very least consequence; indeed, it is not quite clear whether Catholic Emancipation would not follow the fate of all the other laws intended for their advantage, and become an evil instead of a benefit. But, Sir, who will undertake to say, that Catholic Emancipation will tranquillize a country so circumstanced; what men will be bold enough to send their capital into such districts; to employ the population, and teach them habits of industry and peace? What a reformation must take place, totally independent of the Catholic question, before order and regularity will be introduced; before confidence is inspired; before the reciprocal duties of man towards man are understood; before morality is considered as a matter of duty, and not of speculation, and before the rights of property are understood and protected! Who will undertake to say, that Catholic Emancipation, the payment of the Catholic priesthood, and the qualification of the elective franchise, will render one soldier less necessary, one policeman less indispensable, in a state of society such as is described by Mr. O'Connell to exist in the counties of Clare, Kerry, Cork and Limerick? The country may secure his attachment by opening parliament and the bench to his ambition, but the great body of the people will be left in the same state of nakedness and misery, and England will still be called upon to supply her arms and her gold, to keep the mass of the people in subjection to those laws, which are as much calculated for their protection now, as if they had been enacted by Mr. O'Connell himself in propriâ personâ. opposition to their claims. But, when he considered the position of the two parties; when he considered the declarations which have been made, and the signs which have been given, he could never expect that the two parties will amalgamate together. The Protestants are in possession of all that is valuable in Ireland; their estates, no matter whether rightly or wrongfully, have been wrested from the Catholics. The establishments of the country, conferring emolument and honour, are all Protestant; the Church conferring a splendid provision upon its ministers, and the corporations giving station and power and influence to its members, are all Protestants, and have all, at no distant period, been in possession of Catholics. Is it possible therefore to think, that all the solid advantages can be on the one side, without exciting a hope of enjoyment on the other? Can Protestants and Catholics really unite together when such tempting objects are open to the Catholics, and when a public clamour has already been begun against the Protestants? Will the Catholic be satisfied to see every Protestant institution rolling in wealth and splendor, whilst his own are in poverty and distress? Will he submit to have his churches, his convents, his schools, his colleges, supported by alms, whilst his Protestant rival revels in the enjoyment of Catholic possessions? Human nature forbids us to think so; and he must do the Catholics the justice to say, that they have been no hypocrites on this occasion, but have proclaimed boldly and naturally their expectations. If power be given to the Catholics, it was his firm conviction, that a struggle for ascendancy will take place: it will no longer be a question of equal rights and equal privileges, but it will be a question whether Ireland shall be a Catholic country, with Catholic institutions, Catholic establishments, and Catholic supremacy. If power be given to the Catholics, it is in vain to think that the two establishments can be co But, though he was doubtful of the benefits which the removal of the disqualifying laws against the Catholics would confer upon Ireland, he was by no means doubt-existent. ful of the evil consequences which would arise from it. It is said that Catholic Emancipation would unite the Protestant and the Catholic; that it would confer upon the Catholic all the advantages to which a just ambition might aspire, and that it would take away from the Protestant nothing but his prejudices and his fears. If he was convinced that such would be the case, he should be ashamed to continue an The wealth and influence of the Protestants are too great to be viewed with passive indifference; and the ambition and overbearing disposition of the Catholic hierarchy and Catholic laity are too notorious to be satisfied with the empty sounds of equal rights. Their gentry and nobility are ambitious; their priesthood is overbearing, arrogant, and intolerant; and their people, on account of their physical misery and degradation, will be come their ready tools for any change, | And yet, let any man read the evidence of and will make their grievances, no matter Mr. O'Connell respecting the college of whether arising from rents, tithes, or Maynooth, and ask himself, if a parlia taxes, as much a cause of complaint against ment would be justified in encouraging their ruler, in order to bring on Catholic such a system of education in a free coun Supremacy, as they have already done to try? He describes it to be carried on acbring on Catholic Emancipation. The cording to the most rigid principles of Catholic people of Ireland will never monastic discipline; to be the abode of think that Ireland can be prosperous under gloom, secresy, and retirement, to teach a Protestant government. The Catholic nothing but theology, and that too the institutions must clash with the spirit of theology of the Jesuits, and to deaden the Protestant liberality, and unless the great-hearts of its youthful inhabitants by shutest encouragement be given to those insti- ting them out from all intercourse with tutions, the people will become propor- the world, their friends and relations. tionably discontented. Will any man Under any circumstances, is it not the undertake to say, that the order of the duty of a government to superintend such Jesuits ought to be encouraged, or even an establishment; but, if increased funds tolerated, by a Protestant government; were added to it, and if Catholicism were an order which has been proscribed by to be incorporated in our constitution, almost every state in Europe, and which would a Protestant government be justified is the more dangerous on account of the in exempting it from the same jurisdiction ability and unpretending ambition of its which the French government extends over leaders and yet such an institution is in the colleges and seminaries in that counperfect activity in Ireland. Notwithstand try, in order to protect them from the ining the positive contradiction of his hon. troduction of principles subversive of the friend the member for the Queen's County rights of the Gallican church?—And yet, (sir H. Parnell), and his contradiction, we know enough of the Catholic disposi in his opinion, proves the suspicion in tion in Ireland to be assured, that if any which the establishment regards its own scrutiny, much more a scrutiny of the jeafriends, yet notwithstanding his contra-lous character of the French government, diction, Mr. O'Connell has allowed that the Jesuits are in full activity in Ireland. Will a Protestant government encourage the Jesuits? If it does not, the Jesuits will soon rouse the people against such a government. Will a Protestant government allow an unlimited endowment of monasteries, abbeys, and convents? Will it relax the laws of mortmain in favour of Catholic establishment, and exempt the bequests of pious Catholics from the same degree of jealousy and scrutiny, which they have adopted with respect to Protestant institutions? And yet, if there is any jealousy on the subject, what a clamour will be raised by the Catholic party! Already the laws are considered unjust, inquisitorial, and partial, which subject these bequests to any limitation; but if Catholicism shall become a part and parcel of the constitution, what denunciations we shall hear against any minister who shall dare to interfere with the disposition of private property for such pious purposes! With respect to schools and colleges, the same clashing principles will prevail. If the Catholics be admitted to power, will not their laity and their priesthood be naturally anxious to procure pecuniary as sistance for their schools and colleges? was exercised over Maynooth college, the whole Catholic body, clergy and laity, would be in arms against such unjust interference. But, Sir, it is unnecessary to go on detailing how Catholic objects and Protestant principles must clash together; let any man refer to the evidence on the table, and in every page he will see, not only how incompatible the two establishments are to exist together, but how decided and certain are the expectations of the Catholics to make their religion ascendant in Ireland. And here, he would make one or two observations with respect to the prominent characters who have given evidence, and to warn the House against their tone and manner. Like many others he was greatly struck with the manner and moderation of several of those gentlemen; it was impossible not to admire the information and the abilities displayed by Mr. Blake and Mr. O'Connell ; it was impossible also not to admire the demeanour of the Catholic bishops, Dr. Murray and Dr. Doyle, and particularly the eloquence, learning and zeal displayed by those two prelates; but, he was obliged to say, though his admiration of their talents still continues, his confidence in their testimony |