was necessary; and he therefore proposed It might be contended, that the judges to give the Glasgow district an additional could not get through the business if circuit after Christmas, at the time when this plan were adopted. He, however, the court of session was not sitting. He saw no force in that objection ; for there also wished the district of Fortar and was no want of judges in Scotland, to Fife to have the same remedy; and, as it divide the labour. was to be hoped that the necessity for this Mr. Benett was of opinion that the inincrease of the number of circuits would crease of crime was not produced by an not continue, he proposed that his majesty, actual growth of vice and immorality while he had the power to order these cir- amongst the people, but was occasioned cuits, should be empowered at the same by the hardness of the times which reduced time to discontinue them, when they were the lower orders to the commission of found to be no longer requisite. The practices of which they would not otherlearned lord then enumerated several altera- wise be guilty. The remedy proposed by tions in the practice of the criminal courts the learned lord was to extend the numof Scotland, which he wished to abolish. ber of the circuits, and thus to cause justice Among them was the practice of legal ci- to be done more promptly. That certainly tations, which he considered highly absurd; was desirable; but while he admitted that, while he preserved to the criminal the he must be allowed to observe, that it fifteen days' notice of his trial. The would be better to seek out the cause of delivery of verdicts in writing also led to crime and to check it, than to direct their inconveniences, and he wished the verdicts attention merely to the punishment of in every case to be given, as in England, offences. verbally. The confession of guilt he also Mr. Kennedy thought it highly desiradesired to have recorded as in this country, ble that measures should be adopted for without having recourse to an appeal to bringing individuals accused of offences the jury, as in Scotland, which was both to as immediate a trial as possible. One unnecessary and expensive. The learned great evil was the state of the gaols in lord then moved for leave to bring in a Scotland. In the condition of those gaols bill “ to authorise an additional circuit of he believed the increase of crime in a great justiciary to be held at Glasgow and to measure to have originated. Nothing facilitate criminal trials in Scotland.” could be worse. A person shut up in one

Mr. Hume said, he had heard with great of those gaols for four or five months pain the statement made by the learned before trial must necessarily suffer such lord as to the increase of crime in Scotland.contamination that the punishment that He did not think that he had, however, might afterwards be inflicted on him could fairly explained the reason of that increase. not be attended with any moral effect. In his opinion, a great number of those Sir M. W. Ridley hoped that the learned commitments arose from the difficulties lord would take into consideration the which individuals encountered in obtain- disadvantage under which those English ing the necessaries of life; and he hoped counties, which were near the Scotch the time would soon come when things borders laboured, in consequence of the would grow better, and when, in conse- system of banishment out of Scotland, quence, the growth of crime would be which formed one of the punishments checked. This could only be effected by awarded by the Scottish law. Thus an a general improvement of the situation of unfortunate Scotchman, if banished from the people, and not by the adoption of his native country for his misdeeds, immetemporary palliatives. He could not see diately sheltered himself in Northumberwhy the practice of the city of London, land, and was by no means sorry to give with respect to the holding of frequent up his peat fire for a comfortable chimney sessions, should not be followed through- corner in a neighbouring town. For his out the country. One great cause of own part, he could not conceive how this crime was the leaving individuals so long banishment could be considered as a in prison, as their morals suffered by the penalty. On this point he could not but example of those with whom they were quote the opinion of the poet, by whom it obliged to associate. It would be much had been wittily said, better, if, as was the case in the city “Had Cain been Scot, God bad revers’d his doom, of London, a session was held every six Not ced to wander, but remain’d at home.” er eight weeks, at Glasgow and elsewhere. Mr. H. Drummond was sorry that there

was such an increase of crime in Scotland. years 1806 and 1813, and had cost the Distress was one great cause of crime in country from 17,0001. to 20,0001. Another that country, but it was not the only cause; commission had presented nine reports, for, from his own observation, he could and had cost the country 40,0001. He assert that many persons committed of- merely mentioned these facts, as illustrafeencs who were not in want. With respect tive of what commissions for the most part to what the learned lord had said about were. There was nothing more common the Irish, he agreed with him, that they in parliamentary tactics, than to get rid of did not commit more crimes than their a troublesome question by moving for a neighbours; but unquestionably, by in- commission. He thought this plan objeccreasing the population, they increased the tionable, and seldom productive of any general distress, and thus contributed to other result than the getting rid of the growth of crime. As to what the hon. the question. As for the committee for baronet had said about the deterioration of which he was about to move, he did not the morals of the people of Northumber- wish that it should be invested with any land in consequence of persons being extensive powers. He did not think it banished from Scotland, he need not be un- necessary that they should send for witder any alarm on that account; seeing that, nesses. All he wished was, that precedthough such a punishment did exist in the ing inquiries might be referred to the comlaw of Scotland it was hardly ever resorted mittee, in order that they might see if any to-perhaps not once in five or six years. good scheme of education could be exWith respect to what the hon, member tracted from them. He believed that if a for Montrose had said relative to the few gentlemen of sincere intentions would Scotch judges, he was entirely at variance execute this task without attending to with him. In this instance, they had only either of the contending parties, without to do with the criminal judges. Now looking to the right hand or to the left, there were twelve judges in England, and but acting merely as arbiters and judges instead of there being a greater number in between the two, the result of their labours Scotland, there were only six. As to would be extremely beneficial. Let them having eight sessions in the year, it was a consider the question as a new one. He most extravagant idea; for no one would hoped it would not be thought that he think of sending judges, counsel, and jurors, wished to add to the burthens of the counround the country to places where, perhaps try. He was as strongly convinced that there were only one or two prisoners to be economy was necessary, as that the duty tried.

was imperative; and he was certain that Leave was given to bring in the bill. much less money than had already been

wasted upon the subject, would have EDUCATION IN IRELAND.) Mr. Spring effected the establishment of an efficient Rice rose to make the motion of which he system of national education. There was had given notice. He hoped that, if any one establishment in Ireland which he discussion arose upon it, all asperity would rejoiced to find that no one defended. be avoided and no topic touched upon that The establishment he referred to was that was likely to create angry feeling. Let them of charter schools in Ireland, and yet they argue the principles of the question tempe- had cost the country one million pounds rately, and strive to produce the happy sterling. Now if that sum had been beresult of agreeing upon some plan for the stowed upon good, instead of mischievous, education of Ireland. All that he intended purposes, it would have accomplished the to do was, to make out a case which would whole matter. He was quite sure, that to warrant the appointment of a committee. make any plan of education beneficial to For this purpose he would merely refer to Ireland, it must be, in part, supplied by the proceedings which had already taken local contributions-either in the way of place, and to the state in which the sub- tax or contribution—because then the inject now stood. In the year 1806, educa- habitants themselves would be the sureties tion in Ireland was for the first time since to the public that the money was properly the Union brought under the consideration bestowed. He would now add a word or of parliament. In that year a commission two upon the constitution of this comwas appointed under the government of the mittee. He wished it to consist merely of duke of Bedford. The commissioners had twenty one members, and to be as much

esented fourteen reports between the l as possible of an impartial nature. He

thought much good might be done by the ought to be taken immediately. The inquiry he proposed. He did not propose subject had remained in this state ever to attack any one institution, or to do since 1806, and when commissioners were any act that might give a triumph to appointed in 1824, to seek out some either party. He wished only to select neutral ground on which the belligerent a number of gentlemen who should inquire parties (for so he must call them) might how a great moral duty could be best per- meet and be educated, notwithstanding formed, and how the public money could the difference between their religions, the be most beneficially applied in the per- commissioners declared that they had formance of that duty. He concluded by failed in their endeavours to discover such moving, “ that the Reports on the subject ground. He thought therefore that he of Education in Ireland be referred to a might say, that though his hon. friend Select Committee of twenty-one members, might devise a plan of national education with power to Report their Observations which would meet with the approval of the and Opinions thereon to the House.” House of Commons, yet, considering the

Mr. W. Lamb said, that perfectly con- state of parties in Ireland, he doubted if curring with his hon. friend in the he could devise a plan that would be advantages that would attend the diffu- acceptable to all parties, and obtain the sion of education in Ireland, he neverthe- concurrence of the heads of those parties, less wished his hon. friend had postponed without which his hon. friend could not his proposition to a more favourable op- stir one step. One of the plans proposed, portunity. At present he confessed he was to take the Catholics and the Proteswas unable to see how it could be advan- tants together, and, choosing the propitious tageously carried into effect. Still he season of youth, before prejudice had yet could not refuse the means of eliciting all been imbibed, to endeavour to inculcate a the information that could be obtained reciprocity of good feeling. They were upon the subject. He confessed, however, thus to be educated together. The plans that he was much less sanguine in his laid down for elementary education gave expectations of a beneficial result than was rise to no difference of opinion. They his hon. friend; and, standing in the were to be taught writing, the first rules of situation in which he stood, he must be arithmetic, and so forth. These contained distinctly understood as declining to pledge no combustible matter. But then came himself to carry into effect any recommen- religion, with which his majesty's commisdation of the committee; although he sioners said they would not meddle; and should be most happy to do so, as far as he thought they were right. Their was compatible with an abstinence from religious education was to be left to their incurring any additional public expense, respective pastors. But the commissioners and with the principle of not extinguishing wished to select those parts of the gospels private benevolence.

which involved no doctrinal points, and on Mr. Brownlow was glad that the motion which both Catholic and Protestant were was not to be opposed, as they were now agreed. In this they failed. It was totally without any efficient plan of objected, that the whole were taken from national education in Ireland. All the the authorized version of the scriptures of schools were under the superintendence of the one church. The hon. member here the established church, and were therefore stated several other differences of a similar not places of resort to the Catholic. The nature, in which the objections were not to charter schools of Ireland were certainly points of doctrine, but which were neverlooked upon with great jealousy; and, as theless fatal to beneficial proposals. All every society which had education for its these things made him think that they object taught the doctrines of the church would not succeed in devising a good plan of England, or actually professed their of national education in which all parties wish to make converts from the errors of would concur. For his own part, he popery, there could be no common feeling would leave the plan of elementary educabetween them and the Catholics. Out of tion as it stood, and not interfere with the Protestants in Ireland one third were religion at all. He knew that this declaraeducated at the public expense : of the tion would be taken as undervaluing Catholics not one fourteenth. This made religious education; but he begged leave it necessary, that if education in Ireland to say, that he thought no education which was to be national, some active steps I was not a religious education worth any VOL. XVIII,

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thing. He thought that all knowledge | extend the public grant: the first of these was valueless, when compared with the was, that the fund should be applied sacred knowledge which was to be found strictly without reference to party; and the in the Bible. The Bible was good for second, that it should be distributed, not for time, as well as for eternity. For, if a independent purposes or efforts, but in aid of man wished to make a fortune and keep local and private subscription. The inevitit, what could be more calculated for both | able result of an avowal that government those purposes than Christian prudence was ready to find money for any charitable and Christian honesty? If a man wished purpose, unless some restrictions were laid to raise himself to places of honour and of upon the issue of that money, was to trust, what could be a better recommenda- paralyze all private exertion; and, indetion than Christian integrity? Whatever pendently of the mere pecuniary question, wise and proper end men might have in the vigilance which was used over their view in this life, he would ask the House own funds, by the subscribers to a local to match him, if they could, any better charity, was the best security that the rule of conduct than was contained in that public grant in aid of that charity would matchless sentence—“ Be ye wise as ser- be well applied. The attention which the pents, and harmless as doves.”

resident gentry of Ireland would bestow Sir J. Newport thought it better not to upon institutions, established, and partly enter at present into an examination of paid for, by themselves, would do more for subjects which they would have to decide the interests of those charities than could upon after the committee had made their be expected from the most vigorous report. Whatever might be the result of system of public inspection : and as to the labours of the committee, he was quite those proprietors who were not resident, sure that much mischief might be done by he thought there could be little question a previous discussion of the topics which that they would be found first in the list were to engage the attention of that of pecuniary contributors. In conclusion, mittee. Several reports had been presented he agreed, that it would be advisable for to the House, in consequence of a com- the committee, in the first instance, to mission which he had had the honour to apply their attention to the reports of the propose, and he could have wished that preceding commissions, in preference to the recommendations contained in the last examining oral evidence : but as it was of those reports had been acted upon. As possible that, in the course of their labours, all the reports, however, were to be they might find the examination of witreferred to this committee, whose business nesses desirable, he hoped the House it would be, carefully to examine and would either at once grant that power in compare them, he was not without hope the appointment of the committee, or not that much good might result from their refuse it, if, when the necessity arose, it labours.

should be hereafter applied for. Mr. Secretary Peel said, that as his Mr. S. Rice said, he should be ready right hon. friend had signified his inten- to give the committee the power of extion of acquiescing in the proposition, he amining witnesses, if, at a future time, that thought there could be but one opinion as course should be found necessary ; but he to the propriety of abstaining from all dis- was anxious, in the first instance, to concussion which might have a tendency to fine their attention to the reports of the provoke the irritable feeling which already commissions, in order, if possible, to avoid existed in Ireland upon this subject, and a mass of fresh evidence, which the desire which, if awakened, was calculated to to affirm contending opinions might multidefeat the great object which all parties ply without end. had in view. To him the best ground for The motion was agreed to, and a compreferring a parliamentary committee to a mittee appointed. commission was, that 40,0001. had already been laid out upon commissions, not one HOUSE OF COMMONS. of which had yet suggested any practicable plan to the consideration of the House.

Wednesday, March 12. At the same time, while he deprecated an SAVINGS Banks. Mr. Hume said, extended discussion, it seemed to him most that on a recent occasion he had moved fit that the legislature should declare the for returns of the accounts of Savings principles on which it was disposed to Banks, from the period of their establish

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ment to the present year. He now in- Mr. Dawson saw po objection to the tended to resume the subject for the pur- consideration of a subject so important. pose of submitting certain motions, in con- The hon. member had stated the nature tinuation of those he had already brought of the system fairly and correctly, and it forward. The money of the depositors in certainly did seem to require some reform. these banks was vested with government, But he thought there was no necessity for who paid interest at the rate of 41. 11s.6d. entering on any further details at present; per cent. In tiris manner government had, particularly as the subject had been taken in ten years, received 2,835,7741., and up by the chancellor of the Exchequer, paid 3,323, 4011. ; so that the public had who would bring forward some measure lost by this arrangement no less than for the regulations of these banks during 487,6271. The loss which government the session. was sustaining by those banks might be The motions were agreed to. estimated at 1,0001. weekly. He was sorry that he had not, three years ago, IRISH VAGRANTS.] Lord Stanley rose moved for the appointment of a committee to move for a select committee to take into on this subject, or aimed at a repeal of consideration the state of the laws relating the Savings' Bank bill. He was at that to the passing of Irish Vagrants to their time, however, informed by the chancellor own country. The subject was of the Exchequer, that a remedy for the great importance to the county of Lanevil was in contemplation. Was this loss caster, which was at considerable expense to be suffered in the present financial in passing Irish vagrants; and he thought condition of the country? The object for the House would agree that it was hard which those establishments were formed that one county should be put to extrahad been widely departed from. The bill ordinary expense, and feel the pressure should be repealed for two reasons; the almost exclusively, in consequence of its progressive loss to the country, and the local situation. It would appear from the great surplus which the managers always returns, that the numbers passed yearly had in possession untouched. This sur- were very considerable. In 1818, the plus in the Newcastle Savings' Bank, was numbers passed were 6,614 ; in 1819, at present 48,0001. The Devon and Ex-6,138. In 1823, there was an apparent eter Bank was another example of the reduction on the face of the returns; but system on which those concerns were now it was only apparent, or if real was owing nianaged. He thought no time should be to temporary causes, as would appear lost in abating an evil so prejudicial to from the subsequent increase. In 1823, the state. For deposits amounting to the numbers were 1,337; in 1824, 3,043 ; 15,000,0001., government had, within in 1825, 3,358 ; and between June 1826, eleven years, paid the full price at which and July 1827, the numbers were 7,988. the money was invested by those who In fact, the evil had amounted to such a deposited it. On a change of the price height, that something ought to be done of stock, government might lose three or to relieve the county of Lancaster from four millions, while the depositors would the burthen imposed upon it from this be entitled to the same sum in any event.

His intention was, to move for a Now, he considered that they ought to be select committee, to inquire into the subplaced in precisely the same situation as ject; and he thought the sooner they met other capitalists who had money to invest. the better, in order that they might deThere was another point, which he hoped cide what sort of returns they would rewould be taken into consideration by the quire from the different counties, to enhon, member for Surrey; he meant the able them to enter into the merits of the mismanagement of the officers intrusted case. His lordship concluded, by moving with the business of the banks. The hon. for the appointment of the said commitmember then moved for a return of the tee; which was agreed to. amount of interest paid by the commissioners for the reduction of the National PROMOTIONS IN THE Army.) Mr. Debt, and placed to the credit of the re- Hume rose to call the attention of the spective Saving Banks, from the period of House to the novel, injudicious, and ruintheir first establishment up to the 20th of ous mode of proceeding at present adopted November, 1827. He likewise moved for with regard to Promotions in the Army, similar returns connected with those banks. The House was aware that up to the 2nd