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PAROCHIAL SETTLEMENTS (Scor- their industry advantageous to themselves LAND) BILL.] Mr. Kennedy moved the and to the country. order of the day “ for going into a com

Mr. S. Rice said, that if he saw any. mittee on this bill.”

thing in the bill which could be rendered Mr. Estcourt wished the measure to be injurious to his country he would oppose postponed until after the select committee it. No subject, however, could be of more appointed on the motion of a noble lord importance than the constant emigration (Stanley) on the law relating to the passing of the Irish population. If left to follow of Irish vagrants, had made their report. its course unopposed, it must be attended As the law now stood, an Irishman resid- with consequences the most calamitous. ing in Scotland for three years had a claim He was friendly to the present bill because for a settlement; but under this bill seven he thought that this country should not years were required. There was no reci- add to the inducements which brought the procity in the measure, it was entirely in starving population of Ireland from their favour of Scotland, and against England. homes, and hold out the temptation of Now, he thought that no bill ought to be settlement in England or Scotland, in passed until some general principle that addition to the high wages and means of would include the entire empire was agreed living which they at present afforded them. upon.

He would therefore move, “ that He thought it but just and expedient, that the bill be committed on this day six an Irish family should not be able to acweeks."

quire a right of settlement upon the same Mr. James Grattan seconded the motion. terms and with the same ease as a family The House ought to proceed on a general of English. principle, and not with reference to any Mr. Peel wished the bill to be postponed particular part of the empire. If this bill until it should be seen what bearing it had was passed, it would have the effect ten or upon a measure, somewhat similar, with eleven years hence, of excluding all Irish respect to Scotland, which was about to labourers froin Scotland.

be proposed. Mr. Kennedy denied any such intention. Mr. Kennedy acquiesced in the proposal On the contrary, he regarded the Irish as of the right hon. gentleman, and the a valuable class of men, who had conferred further consideration of the bill was great benefits upon Scotland. The hon. postponed to the 2nd of May; as was also member had declared that there was no the Scotch Vagrants bill. reciprocity in this matter ; but he seemed to forget that England possessed that SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROwhich Scotland had not, namely, a law of POLIS.] Mr. Hobhouse said, that his bon. removal. If he were to ask the House to colleague had last session brought the grant him a law of removal for Scotland, subject of the Supply of Water to the he did not think it would be refused ; but western part of the Metropolis before the still he did not ask for it, because it could House, and be understood that a commisnot be carried into effect without a paro- sion had been appointed to inquire into chial rate levied upon each parish. That the subject. He wished to ask the right remedy for the evil, therefore, he did not hon. Secretary what progress had been seek, because it would create another evil, made in that commission. He begged which the people of Scotland were most also to suggest that its terms might be desirous to avoid. They only asked for a enlarged, and that if the commissioners better term of settlement; and he really found any defect in the supply they should thought the propositions of his bill both be empowered to inquire into and suggest moderate and reasonable. The committee the remedy. of the noble lord merely professed to in- Mr. Secretary Peel said, that the comquire into the passing of vagrants; but as mission was appointed by his predecessor, Scotland had no power to pass, he con- Mr. Sturges Bourne. The individuals ceived that no good could result from composing that commission were Dr. delay. He did not wish to put a stop to Roget, Mr. Telford, a civil engineer, and the passage of the Irish into Scotland, but Mr. Brande the chemist, three gentlemen he wished to put an end to the migratory of eminence in their respective professions. disposition of the Irish and, by compelling When he had come into office, he was them to settle in one place instead of applied to by the commissioners to know roaming through the country, to make if he would sanction the taking of certain

surveys and levels. His answer was, that filled up; and the bill might be re-comhe wished to carry the intentions of parlia- mitted after the holidays. By adopting ment, whatever they might be, into effect, this course, the magistrates at the various and that those intentions were to be ascer- quarter sessions would have the means of tained by the addresses. Upon a reference knowing what the House was about. He to them it appeared that the commission would abstain from saying any thing on was authorized to inquire into the quantity, the principle of his bill; but he begged to quality, and salubrity, of the water. The call the attention of the House to some of best course, as it seemed to him, would be the alterations in the existing law which it to move for a copy of the commission, and proposed to make. One of the first variaof the correspondence between the com- tions which he proposed to introduce had missioners, and the office of the Secretary reference to the meetings of magistrates of State for the Home Department. He at which licences were to be granted. He was glad that the subject had been men- proposed that it should be enacted, that tioned, because, if it should appear ex- the whole of the licensing in a single pedient to give new powers to the commis- district should not be confined to one day, sion, there was plenty of time for that but that magistrates should be compelled purpose; but he still thought that the to appoint a second day; so that if any duty of taking levels and employing innkeeper was prevented from attending engineers, with a view to any amendment on the first day, he might have an opporof the supply, should be left to the private tunity of attending on the second. companies which would no doubt arise if Another proposed alteration would obviate the present system was found inefficient, some of the objections to the existing and not be undertaken by the public. Of mode of transferring licences. It went to this he was certain, that if the water at enact, that certain periods should be fixed present used was proved to be insalubrious, for those transfers ; so that the transaction and that a supply from some different should be perfectly notorious. Another source was required, the metropolis had important alteration was this, that where spirit enough, and opulence enough, to the number of magistrates in any jurisdicprovide that supply; and that the duty of tion was small, the magistrates of the procuring it would be much better left to county should be introduced, so that the personal speculation than be attempted by number should never be less than six. the government.

Another clause extended the principle of Mr. Hobhouse concurred in the opinion exclusion where magistrates might be susof the right hon. Secretary, that the pected of any interest in the business of business of taking levels would be better licensing. Another proposition was, to left to individual speculation. But per- wave the necessity of publicans obtaining haps it would be as well to add so much certificates before they applied for licences, new matter to the instructions of the com- and finding sureties for maintaining order in missioners as would authorize them, if they their houses; both which impositions had found the present system defective, to con- been found vexatious to the parties, and of sult upon and suggest a remedy.

no security to the public. The last point, Mr. Peel said, that the commission and one which he trusted the House would already possessed that power, and the approve, was, that in every case an appeal right hon. gentleman then moved for a was to be allowed against an act of the copy of the commission and correspond- magistrates; and in order to ensure the ence, the production of which was agreed best possible decision, the appeal was to to.

be in every case to the county at large.

It was a farther object of his measure to Licensing System.] Mr. Estcourt consolidate under one act all the statutes rose in conformity with the notice which relative to public-houses. he had given. It would, he said, better Mr. Hobhouse said, he had been a answer the object which he had in view member of the committee above stairs not to enter into any discussion on the upon the bill, and thought the House and present occasion. If the House would the country were much indebted to the allow him, he would bring in the bill, for hon. gentleman for his exertions. the purpose of having it read a first and The bill was then read a first and second second time, and committed pro forma. time. In the committee the blanks would be

wish to secure to the clergyman 5001., HOUSE OF COMMONS.

when, if he received his tithes in kind, he Monday, March 17.

would be entitled to merely 3001. This Tithes' COMMUTATION BILL.) Mr. would be an evident injustice to the parishSecretary Peel said, he had given notice, ioners, and would doubtless be felt as that before this bill went into a committee, such. If they took the case of the county he should move that it be an instruction of Norfolk, it would clearly illustrate his to the committee, that they should have principle. Suppose a measure like this the power to limit the duration of any bar- had been carried into effect sixty years ago, gain or agreement entered into under the before the extensive cultivation of barley provisions of this measure to twenty-one and turnips was introduced into that counyears. He objected to this bill as it stood ty, would it not have been a manifest at present, because it appeared to him to injustice to calculate the future stipend of be pregnant with injustice to the church a clergyman on the preceding seven years' of England. As it was now constituted, receipts? Was no allowance to be made it enabled parties to enter into agreements for improvements ? He wished the stipend to determine, for ever, the future stipend which arose from tithes to vary according to be paid to ministers of the church of to the success of agriculture, and the England. If this principle were acted on, amount of produce in every parish. He it would be fraught with manifest injustice; was anxious to promote satisfactory arfor he could see no reason, why a calcula- rangements between parishioners and the tion of the receipts of any given living for church of England. He opposed this bill the last seven or fourteen years should be further, because he believed that, in many laid down as the allotted stipend of a mi- instances, the bishop would interfere, and nister of the church of England for all prevent its provisions from being carried future time. Suppose such a system had into effect. It was a very bad general been adopted two hundred years ago, what principle, first to adopt a measure of this would have been its effect on the church kind, and afterwards to afford an opporof England ? In what situation would tunity of its provisions being defeated, in that church have now been placed, if, two consequence of the dislike or disapprobahundred years ago, provision had been tion of those whose consent it was necesmade for fixing, on the ratio of the past sary to obtain before those provisions could receipts, the future stipends of the minis- be acted on. He thought it would be very ters of the church of England ? Surely it easy to propose some other arrangement would have created manifest injustice in better calculated to conciliate the two many individual instances; and it would parties than that which the present bill evidently have lowered the condition of its offered. To show the injustice of the prinministers as compared with other classes ciple, he would suppose a lenient clergyof the community. He might be told that man, who had abated his demands on his the provisions of this bill would not be parishioners; and he would ask, if that generally found unjust, because in several clergyman commuted his claims, and conparishes, where perhaps cultivation might sented to receive a stipend equivalent to retrograde, the value of the produce would, the produce of the preceding seven or at a future period, be less than it was at fourteeen years, whether it would be fair present, and that therefore the gains of that his successors should be bound by that the clergy in these parishes might be viewed agreement? The amount of the sum to as a set-off against the losses which they be paid hereafter to the church of England might sustain in other parishes where cul- under this bill was, it appeared, to be in tivation had been extended. Now, he did accordance with the amount of the not wish any portion of the clergy to gain receipts for the fourteen years preceding in this way, because he did not think it the bargain, varying according to the price would be satisfactory to any party. He of corn; so that if the price of corn fell in would suppose the commutation of a consequence of an extensive importation, certain parish fixed at 5001., taking the or from any other circumstance, then the receipts of the produce for the preceding amount of stipend must also fall. What seyen or fourteen years, and that the real he objected to most decidedly was, the value of the tithes, from peculiar circum-permanently fixing, on any calculation of stances, turned out to be, at a future past receipts, the sum which was for the period, only equal to 3001, i he did not future to be paid to the clergymen of the

church of England, that sum varying with was so much interested in that measure as the price of corn. He could not see why the church itself. The collection of tithes there should be such a difference between operated injuriously to the church, and this bill and the law introduced into Ire- created, even in the lowest classes, who land on the same subject. If ever there had the produce taken from their gardens, was a good and beneficial act introduced a great dislike to it, and a great dissent into Ireland, it was the Tithe Composition from it. He had been concerned in seveact of 1823. It had been carried into ral Inclosure acts, in which the clergy had operation in nine hundred and forty accepted a commutation for their tithes, parishes, and the sum paid at present in either in land or in a corn rent; and they consequence of these agreements amounted had always, to his knowledge, received to 286,0001. Under that act the agree- great benefit from the change, especially ment could not extend beyond twenty-one from having no interest in that disagreeyears, and it was perfectly consonant with able sort of property which rendered them policy and justice. In conclusion, the so obnoxious to their parishioners. The right hon. gentleman moved, “ That it be amount of the corn-rent was fixed; but an instruction to the committee that they on any variation of the price, either party shall have power to limit the duration of could apply to the quarter sessions, and any agreement to twenty-one years.” obtain an order to examine the returns of

Mr. Benett said, that this bill was the market, in order to settle the rate in founded on the same principle as the inclo- the succeeding seven years. The consesure bills, by which corn-rents were re- quence of this arrangement was, that the served to the clergy; the amount of which value of the tithes varied with the price were not fixed beyond seven years, and of corn, but not with the outlay of capital. generally not for so long a period, and Mr. Secretary Peel. But not according which changed with the value of corn. Bills the improved value of the land. of this kind had been passed in number- Mr. Benett. Certainly not: and he less instances, with the consent of all contended that the tithe-owner had no parties, including the bishops. The cul- right to any share of his capital. If the tivation of waste lands could not be instruction was carried, he trusted the hon. attempted in this country, without giving gentleman would withdraw the bill; for so one third of the money expended to the limited, he feared it would do a great deal tithe-owner. This was not the case if the of mischief. same money was applied to burning bricks; The Attorney-general said, he agreed and thus an inducement was held out to entirely with his right hon. friend in the build houses and factories in preference to view he had taken of this bill. The object cultivation. If the limitation proposed by of the measure was a perpetual, irrethe right hon. gentleman was carried, no vocable alienation of the inheritance for a man would venture to expend his money money-rent, to be regulated by the price of in cultivating waste land. Though the corn. He admitted that there was some tithe-owner would receive nothing addi- ground for the topic so generally urged, tional from him during the twenty-one that the agriculturist would not improve years of the agreement, before the profit his land, because he could only make an resulting from the improvement com- agreement with the existing incumbent for menced, yet when it did commence at the his life ; but he thought the period of end of that time, the tithe owner would twenty-one years would be satisfactory to the enter and take one third of the produce of tenant, and that was the principle of the the land. That was the ground of his ob- Irish act, of which he entirely approved. jection to the Irish act, and he was sorry By that measure, there was an alienation to hear it had been acted upon to such an of the tithes for twenty-one years for a extent as the right hon. gentleman had money-rent. But this bill introduced a stated. The consequence would be, that new principle, going beyond the Irish act. an enormous property would be sacrificed, Another very important question related to which would prevent any future attempt to the difficulties which would attend these cultivate the bogs and waste lands of that commutations. Taken as accurately as country. He had been personally attacked, they might be, how could they be definibecause he had suggested that it was de- tively ascertained? Who could, in every sirable to have the tithes of this country instance, decide exactly what the church commuted. Now he was sure no party I was entitled to ? There might be some VOL. XVIII,

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modus, composition, or agreement, which precise number. He would mention one the successor of the incumbent might set fact. In the county of Bedford, out of aside. There might be claims which were one hundred and twenty-five parishes, not set up though no doubt could exist sixty-one had commuted their tithes. His that they might be enforced. Yet in a bill went only to allow that to be done moment, under this bill, all these difficul- before commissioners, which was now done ties were to be settled. If it were carried every day by other means.

A great many into effect all through England, every of the objections that had been made question of uncertainty, as to the nature, against allowing incumbents to bind up species, extent, quantity, and quality, of the rights of their successors, were removed tithes of every parish in England, must be by that provision of the bill which rendered brought to an instant and final decision. the consent of the bishop necessary, before Was this a work so easy of achievement? any commutation could be agreed upon. He thought, moreover, that the principle It was not proposed by the bill to alienate of commuting tithes for ever, was tithes, but merely to commute them on a likely to prove very injurious to many of footing fair to both parties. Whatever the successors of aged incumbents, who might be the fate of the bill, he certainly might be drawn into bargains exceedingly should feel it his duty to resist the propoprejudicial to the incomes of those succes- sition now made to the House. sors. He was not particularly pleased with Mr. E. Davenport stigmatised the prethe principle of regulating the money sent system of taking tithes, as one of the payment by the price of corn, which would most oppressive that could be devised. make the parson search as anxiously into After stating some instances which had the price of corn, as brokers did into the come to his knowledge of the vexatious price of consols. This scheme of alienat- methods by which lay proprietors had, at ing church property was liable to objec- various times, attempted to alter the modus tions both ways. If the land became im- upon hay, and other articles of produce, proved, then the commutation would be the hon. member proceeded to observe, unjust to the church; if it became impo- that length of possession, which, in ali verished, the commutation would be unjust other cases, tended to strengthen a right, to the other party. As the bill now stood, had a directly opposite effect in any conhe certainly did not feel disposed to agree test with the church ; for although the conto it; in his opinion, the nearer it was tract under which a person paid his tithes brought to the Irish bill, the better it might be of even two centuries' duration, would be.

the person who defended his right upon Mr. Greene could not help thinking that the strength of its terms was bound to the the right hon. Secretary's opinion had been production of the deed. This, too, had somewhat biassed by the sentiments of his another bad effect; for if any ancestor of constituents; but he must submit to the any landholder had been guilty of any act House, that the members of the two Univer- of generosity, and had raised the amount of sities knew less about parochial tithes than an incumbent's tithes without wishing it to any other persons in the kingdom. Living continue beyond his life, the church imin their respective colleges, they knew mediately turned round upon him, and nothing about the bargains which were exacted that sum as a positive and direct made with farmers, and the painful modus. Great and numerous as were the situations in which clergymen and their evils in our legal system, in his opinion, parishioners were placed in consequence the evils of the system of taking tithes exof those bargains. Nothing would be ceeded them all, and he hoped that the more likely to induce clergymen to reside proposition of the right hon. Secretary, upon their livings than the removal of the which went to smother the principle of present system ; nothing more likely to the bill, would not receive the sanction of increase the number of non-residents than the House. the continuance of it. This bill merely Mr. Estcourt did not think it fair in his went to reduce to a system the powers hon. friend, to infer that the mind of the which the House had so given by other right hon. Secretary had been warped by bills. A considerable number of Commu- the sentiments of his constituents. He tation bills had been passed; but they was quite sure that his own was not. were so mixed up with Inclosure bills, that Nor could he admit that the University of he had not been able to ascertain their Oxford was incompetent to decide upon à