a committee, he ready to

as presumed it would , the Declara

isten to manyt pro position that mightly be tohe poeta

nbe like a boy bo.embers of the

a

on it.

He

made on the subject, and that if these Established Church in that kingdom, who acts could be repealed satisfactorily to the would be there viewed in the character of Church, it would be doubly satisfactory to Dissenters. him. Of that opinion he still remained; Mr. Peel said, the Declaration he had and he rejoiced to think, following the proposed was applicable to none, except general impression of the House, that those who were about to fill offices. If what he wished to effect might be done the Declaration was extended to Scotland, satisfactorily to the Dissenters, and not which he did not propose to do, it would unsatisfactorily to the Church. He had have the effect of placing members of the

. listened with pleasure and attention to all Church of England in the situation of Disthat had passed, particularly to what had senters. fallen from the right hon. Secretary and The Speaker then left the chair, and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Bourne). the House went into a committee, Mr. R. He thought it was his duty to acquiesce Gordon in the chair. in the proposition of the right hon. Secre- Mr. Peel said, that he had drawn up tary, although that of the right hon. gen- the Declaration, but as to the machinery tleman came, perhaps, nearer to his own of the bill he could say nothing. He enfeelings. But, though that was the case, tertained a confident hope that the inthe declaration proposed by him had not sertion of that condition would ensure the advantage of that part of the decla- the success of the measure. He had ration of the right hon. Secretary, which drawn up the clause on his own view of would, he hoped, prove satisfactory to the case, but he had not had an opportuthose who took care of the interests of nity of consulting any professional person the Church. That point he could not overlook in introducing this bill.

The bill went through the committee. wished the measure not to be in

any

degree forced and compulsory: he was de- PASSENGERS' REGULATION BILL.] sirous that it should pass on free and On the motion, that this bill be read a willing grounds. He therefore had no second time, hesitation in going into the committee Mr. Warburton said, that when he with the instruction that the provision first heard of this bill, he supposed that if proposed by the right hon. Secretary a few comforts were added to the passenshould be referred to it. He wished that gers while on board the vessels, all the provision to be entertained, rather than objections to the present system would be any other. He would, however, guard obviated ; but, on reading the papers laid himself from adopting any of the specific before the House, he found that the obwords or phrases which the right hon. jections did not relate solely to inconSecretary might have introduced. With veniences of the voyage, but to the prinrespect to the Declaration, he would say, ciple on which voluntary emigration was that there unquestionably was something in now conducted. The complaints of the the practice which was calculated to raise colonists against this principle resolved some doubt in the minds of the Dissenters; themselves into two points; first, that the but he indulged in the hope of its being re- emigrants were paupers; secondly, that moved by conciliatory conferences with re- they were chosen from the disaffected spect to tire form of the words proposed, ra- classes. Every page of this correspondence ther than by angry discussion and debate. contained allegations of this nature. Now,

. Therefore his wish was, that in the first the reasons assigned by the colonists, why instance the committee should adopt the unlimited emigration ought not to be thus proposition of the right hon. Secretary allowed, were the very reasons which were wholly and entirely; and when the bill urged by English and Irish gentlemen was printed, it could be considered as a before the committees of 1824, 1825, perfectly open question: This appeared to and the committee of last year, and by him to be the course more likely to obtain the Roman Catholic priests, in order to the assent of all parties than any other he prove that emigration ought to be encould point out. This measure was not to couraged as much as possible. The be considered as operating solely on Dis- former object to receiving paupers and senters. If it was extended to Scotland, persons from disaffected districts, and the

, 1828. 1210 latter say, that the paupers are the very | allegation of one of the governors was a persons who ought to be encouraged to complete answer to that of the other goemigrate; and further, that it would be vernor, who, in utter ignorance of the wise to thin the population in the most typhus fever, said it had been generated disaffected districts by emigration [The on board that vessel. He spoke on the hon. member here read portions of the authority of the best physicians, when he evidence before various committees, in said that the typhus fever could no more support of this position). Here, then, be generated than the scarlet fever, the were two conflicting and absolutely con-small-pox, or any other of those diseases tradictory opinions. The colonists refuse which were called contagious. When the to take the disaffected paupers of Ireland, House recollected how long the typhus and the English and Irish" gentlemen say fever had prevailed in Ireland, there was that these are the very persons who ought no difficulty in finding out how it hapto emigrate. They were at issue upon a pened that it raged on board a vessel filled leading point, and on this point the House with poor and destitute Irish people. He had to judge. It was absolutely necessary had been told by the right hon. member that government should decide one way or for Waterford, that when this vessel sailed, the other; that they should either check the typhus fever prevailed so universally, the emigration of paupers and disaffected in that part of Ireland, that the funds of persons, or fall into the views of the Irish a charitable institution, whose object was proprietors; or, in a modified way, into to relieve persons afflicted with this disease, the view of the right hon. member for were totally exhausted. Unless the right Newcastle, and bear a part of the expense. hon. gentleman was disposed to grant a He believed there were causes operating committee up-stairs, before which all which would prevent the government from parties interested, and especially the Irish attempting to check the tide of emigration, shipowners, might be heard, he must witheven if they were inclined to do so; and hold his support to the bill. if this bill were intended as a check to Mr. V. Stuart said, it appeared to him voluntary emigration, which he hoped it that this bill merely consisted of regulawas not, it was his opinion that it would tions which secured sufficient space for the be found impossible to carry it into effect. passengers during the voyage; he could He did not enter into the views of the not, therefore, understand by what party, right hon. member for Newcastle, and wish or on what ground, so useful a measure that 201. a-head should be given to the was to be opposed. As to the Irish shipemigrants; but then he contended, that owners, if they meant to do what was government ought to lend their aid to right, they could have no objection to do locating the emigrants on their landing. it under an act of parliament, and if they It appeared from this correspondence that did not, then the sooner they were made 15s.-let it be taken at 20s.-- a-head, to do it the better. In his opinion the placed in the hands of the colonial go- bill encouraged rather than retarded emivernment, would remove the greater part gration,

and he therefore should support it. of the distress complained of by the colo- Mr. Robinson perfectly agreed with the nists on the landing of the emigrants. hon. member for Waterford, who in a few This House ought not to stand idly by, words, had placed the subject in the right and contribute nothing on this subject but point of view. If the hon. member opporeports. And now a word or two as to site would carefully examine the informathe bill itself. He really thought that so tion which had been received from the many alterations were necessary in it, that different governors — information which they could only be satisfactorily made in put speculation at defiance-he would a committee up-stairs. It had been stated, find that a case had been made out so that in consequence of the crowded state strong as to warrant the House in restoring of these vessels, the want of food and the provisions of a bill which had unfortuof water, and the dirt, infectious diseases nately been repealed a year or two ago. had been generated, which destroyed a He could not understand why the hon. considerable portion of the crews, and of member, in arguing against the provisions the population of the towns in which they of this bill, should have gone into the landed. Now, with regard to the ship great question of emancipation. The bill “ James,” in which it had been said that certainly had a bearing on that question ; the typhus fever had been generated, the ' but the hon, member had argued as if it included the whole of that question, The forward, and especially to hear him argue present state of the Passengers' law was, upon them as upon principles to which no in his opinion, monstrous, and a disgrace person could object. The hon. member's to the country. He decidedly objected to argument amounted to this—that where the proposition for going into a committee typhus had broken out on board the emiabove stairs : the season for the departure gration ships, that malady had not arisent of ships with emigrants was approaching, out of any crowded or unclean state of and, unless some act was passed, we should the vessel, but necessarily proceeded from have a repetition of the same horrors in the emigrants themselves having been put the present year which had been in the on board in a state of disease. This might last so justly complained of.

be a discovery made by the hon, member, Mr. J. Grattan considered the present but certainly it was directly contrary to measure to be one designed more for the be- the opinions of all those who had paid the nefit of the colonies, than for the advantage most attention to such subjects. But how either of England or Ireland. In his did the facts appear from the reports upon opinion it was calculated to impede emi- the table? The letters from New Brunsgration rather than to promote it. He wick distinctly attributed the disease in was desirous of affording every facility to the ships which had reached that port to the purposes of free emigration. The the crowded state of the vessels theminspection of the vessels was a measure to selves, and to the entire want of order which he had no objection, but he did not and cleanliness which pervaded their arthink it necessary to sanction a bill im- rangements. The authority of this correposing such restrictions as the presente spondence could not be questioned; but At all events, it was desirable to go into a the hon. member had garbled it, in order committee on the bill; as it certainly was to make it serve his own peculiar theory. one which should not be hastily adopted. Where the letters spoke of a particular

Mr. Secretary Huskisson said, he wished parcel of emigrants as the most miserable to call the attention of the House to the real and squalid on their arrival that the writer question before it. He was not disposed to had ever beheld, the hon. member at oncé enter into a discussion upon the general jumped to the inference, that the people question of emigration : that was a subject must necessarily have been in that state which would require a more extended line when they embarked from Europe: now, of argument than hon. members would be it was at least as likely, and certainly inclined to listen to at so late a period of better proved, that they had fallen into the evening. He could not agree that this condition in the course of the passage. the question of emigration was so ex- The hon. member said, that typhus had tremely simple, that the House would be broken out in the “ James," almost as justified in saying, “if it be right to extensively as in any; and yet, certaivly, encourage emigration, then it is unneces- in that case, from the number of persons sary to take any care of the manner in on board, it was evident that there had which the parties emigrating are trans- been no crowding of passengers. ported to the country of their destination." the hon. gentleman forgot that this ship The hon. member for Bridport had spoken was shewn to have been in total want of of those parties as if they had no claim provisions, a circumstance just as likely to upon the consideration of the country in produce serious disease as too great a which they had been born, and in which confinement in point of space. It was they had devoted many years of their needless, however, to go into detail upon lives to labour, until 'peculiar circum- the state of particular ships, when the stances in the condition of that country writer in this correspondence, a captain rendered their further services superfluous in the navy, who had been employed in or inapplicable. Under such circumstances the preventive Slave service on the coast of he could not consent to speak of these Africa, declared that the condition of people—the most helpless and uninformed many vessels which he had seen arrive at of the community--as of a mere commodity Newfoundland with emigrants beggared which was the subject of export from one all the descriptions of the state of the locality to another. It had surprised him captured slave-ships, even under the acto hear the hon. member lay down those cumulated miseries belonging to the doctrines of political philosophy and existing system of contraband trade. It medical science which he had brought I was, then, the duty of ministers, and their

imperative duty, to call upon parliament and common safety of the human beings
for power to put a stop to these enormi- who were on board of them. With these
ties; and, with his best exertions, even in views he resisted the appointment of the
the teeth of science and philosophy, 'he committee up-stairs, and should press his
would oppose the proposition for going own measure as rapidly as the forms of the
into a committee, which would allow the House would allow him to do.
opportunity of their perpetration during Mr. Hume said, he was surprised to
another season. He protested that, if the find the professed advocate of free trade
committee were carried, he would himself supporting a bill like that before the
recommend all the colonies to pass bills, House. Honourable gentlemen seemed
in their own defence, for general embarka- to forget that the object of emigration was,
tion; for we had no right to inundate not to send out of the country the choicer
them with such a population as they were portion of its inhabitants, but to provide
receiving under the existing system. for those who were in a state of excessive
Honourable gentlemen spoke of the poverty, and had no means of obtaining
Passenger's act, as being calculated to employment. The whole of the provisions
check the flow of voluntary emigration ; of the Passengers’-acts had been calcu-
but he was certain that nothing could be lated to do nothing but mischief, and the
more likely to prevent voluntary emigra- trade of carrying emigrants must have
tion than the accounts which parties now stopped if they had not been evaded.
received of the miserable fate of those who The stores required to be put on board
had gone before them. He agreed entirely were perfectly unsuited to the habits of
that it was the duty of government to the persons who were to use them. The
wards emigrants to see that they were not Irish were made sick by the diet of beef
shipped in any case without a competent and pudding; and the right hon. gentle-
supply of food and water. food man talked of providing biscuit on board.
might be of the very commonest descrip- Who wanted biscuit ? For the Scotch
tion, but a proper quantity of it they he would answer, that oatmeal and water
should have. "And the water should be of was all that was necessary. The business
a drinkable quality, shipped in a condition of emigration had gone on very well with-
fit for human creatures ; and not in old out any restrictions until the year 1817,
casks which had recently contained and then, because one or two cases of
molasses or salt hides, which had been abuse arose, the trade was cramped with
the case in more than one instance. It laws which, if they had not been evaded,
was too much to talk of there being no would have put an end to it entirely. He
necessity for these regulations. Even in could not see the consistency of this
the time of the Slave-trade there had conduct on the part of the right hon. gen-
been a law regulating the number of slaves tleman, the advocate of the principles of
by the tonnage upon the middle passage ; free trade. It was an odd change in the
and that which we had thought it right to do tactics of the right hon. gentleman ; but
for the negroes of Africa ought we to refuse it was not quite his first, and he went on
to do for our own countrymen? Honour wavering. He had begun well; now he
able gentlemen talked of its being hard was going on not quite so well; and it
that ships should be put to the trouble of was difficult to say where he would land
furnishing an account of every passenger at last. For hiniself, he was against the
that they carried out. Why, they were bill altogether. He would have no inter-
compelled to furnish an account of the ference whatever with the Irish who might
smallest parcel that they took out, and wish to emigrate. Every arrangement by
that which they did for á bale of goods, legislation would be only injurious to
they might surely well make shift to them. He trusted, therefore, that the
do for a living man. He wished to throw House would reject the measure alto-

a
as little difficulty in the way of the ship-gether.
ping trade as possible; but he would insist SirJ. Newport said, he considered the pre-
upon having such a quantity of provision sent bill as an innovation on the freedom of
and water always on board, as should trade. For fifty years the system of emi-
guarantee the emigrants from famine in gration had been going on without any
case of a protracted passage ; and the legislative interference ; and no evils had
state of the vessels as to numbers should arisen from the want of such regulations
be such as was conducive to the health I as the present. He thought it was unfair

for government to act in so important a disposition to receive all who went from matter on the representations of individual this country as emigrants. The right hon. cases, given by interested parties. Much baronet knew full well the circumstances stress had been laid on two cases of typhus under which large bodies of the people fever which had been taken out from Wa- emigrated from Ireland, that they had no terford to one of our colonies. Now it option, but were obliged to resort to emihappened, that the whole of the last gration as a last resource. But, would summer typhus had prevailed to a great not the evils of their condition be multiextent at Waterford, and it could not be a plied on their arrival in the colonies withmatter of surprise that two vessels should out any preparation, or any provision being have departed from it with cases of fever made for their employment or subsistence? on board; but what he feared was, that in Was it to be supposed that on their arrival the representations thus made, no inquiries they were to find, as if by miracle, a prohad been made into the circumstances of vision ready for them? Such a doctrine the vessels when the ysailed from port; and would be most absurd, and if acted upon he thought that the measure before the would have the effect of increasing a hunHouse should be delayed until an oppor- dred fold the evils which the emigrants had tunity should be given for obtaining full endeavoured to avoid by removing from information on the subject. He thought their native country.

He for one must that, if this bill was converted into a check, ever protest against the doctrine, that the which he believed it would be, to emigra- immediate effect of indiscriminate emigration, every Irish person whose emigration tion was to be the reception of the emigrants it would hinder should be maintained in by the colonists. The very reverse was England or Scotland. If the House in- already proved in too many cases. Ametended to go to the expense of transferring rica had legislated on the subject, and had the poor to the colonies at a cost to the come to the decision not to receive the country of 301. per man, some regulations crowds thrown off from the forced populaof this kind might be enforced; but volun- tion of Ireland, where the increase was ditary emigration should be allowed to take rectly encouraged, in order to secure its own course. The emigrants ought to occupants for the small parcels of land be permitted to make the best provision into which gentlemen divided their estates for their voyage without being subject to in that country, for the purpose of obtainany government regulations.

ing a larger rental. If, then, America Mr. Wilmot Horton said, he could easily would not receive them, was it not hard explain the difference of opinion between that those which she refused should be himself and the right hon. baronet on this thrown on the colonies ? Could any thing subject. If the right hon. bart. thought be more unjust than that those colonies that the colonies would gladly receive the should be as it were called upon to provide forced population of Ireland, which some for a large portion of the population of gentlemen of that country encouraged for this country, who were not in a condition the purpose of raising their rents, if he to offer any equivalent in the way of usethought that redundant population, no ful service for the subsistence which they matter how wretched and destitute in its thus required? The right hon. baronet had condition, would be gladly received on talked of the system of sending out emitheir arrival in the colonies, he was right grants at the public expense, and without in opposing any regulations as to the mode being able to support his argument by the of their transfer from the country. If the testimony of a single witness of character

, right hon. baronet thought that every man still contended, that emigrants so sent out ejected from his small farm and miserable would not be able to defray the expense of hut, by the system of law now in force in their outfit, or rather he rested satisfied by Ireland, was to be willingly received, the denying, without any evidence, that which moment he reached the shores of our co- was supported by the testimony of so many lonies, he might be right in opposing any competent witnesses. Until the right measure which, in his opinion, would tend hon. baronet could support that denial by to restrict emigration; but the right hon. the evidence of competent witnesses, he baronet was wrong in assuming that such must, in his turn, deny the justice of the would be the case.

The whole of the in- right hon. baronet's conclusion.—He would formation laid before the committee on also deny that the sending out emigrants emigration proved that the colonists had no l in the way which he had proposed could

а