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that subject. But that such proceedings which the judges and counsel felt to do were in themselves a grievance, whether their duty, it was out of their power to do originating in ignorance or mistake, no-justice to the suitors. With respect to body could deny, and the sooner they the adjournment, he could have no objecwere remedied the better. The attention tion to it. He was not so weak as to of the Privy Council had been called to imagine that the House would take all his the subject, and a proposition had been statements upon his showing, without due made for the appointment of an officer, consideration. Of the mischief there was whose duty it would be, in all cases where no doubt; as to the remedy, that he left there was no special agent, to conduct the to the wisdom of the House. cause, examine the papers, extract cases The debate was then adjourned till the for the opinion of counsel, employ counsel, 22nd instant. and by bringing the matters before the Privy Council, to obtain final judgment
HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Brougham said, he should be sorry
Friday, February 8. to be understood as wishing to cast any Savings Banks.] Mr. Hume said, he reflections upon the Privy Council
. of wished to call the attention of the House the distinguished persons who attended to a subject of considerable importance. there as professional judges, he was bound He was anxious to move for certain reto speak in terms of the highest respect; turns, in continuation of former returns, and of the present Master of the Rolls, in with a view of showing the enormous exparticular, he would say, that there never pense at which Savings Banks werema inwas a man more anxious to do his duty tained by the public. He was one of the with despatch. So it was before his time; earliest and most active in promoting them, for he had no objection to make against and therefore he could not be actuated by lord Gifford, or sir John Copley; and still any hostile view in his present proceeding. less to sir William Grant, one of the He must, however, candidly state, that greatest judges that this country ever pro- when he promoted the establishment of duced. But the difficulty, known only Savings Banks he did not expect that they to professional men, was, that you could would cost the country half a million sternot get judges and counsel together more ling for their maintenance. He expected than about eight or nine times a year. that such institutions would pay
their own The Privy Council had no bar of its own. expense, and that the poor man would, However numerous the appeals might be, by their means, be enabled to invest his they were obliged to await the convenience ten, twenty, or fifty pounds, with as much of the few who practised in the court. Of security as the rich. He had never conthese, about four attended from the court templated that they were to receive a of Chancery, and the same number from larger interest than what the public crethe King's-bench; but when those courts ditor received. It was high time that the sat, these gentlemen could not attend. subject should be inquired into. Up to There was scarcely any thing done before the 5th January 1827, the amount paid the Privy Council, except upon holydays, by the public was 432,0801. Since the such as the 30th of January, the Purifica- year 1817, government had received, for tion, or a few such days. Surely this was interest of money invested 2,350,0001., a state of things which ought not to con- and had paid for deposits 2,750,0001. tinue. These appeal causes were of the Thus there was a loss of nearly half a milgreatest importance, few of them involving lion. His object was, to bring before the property under from 50 to 60,0001. Four House the accounts to the 5th January years and a half was the average time that 1828. If these establishments were to be a cause took, from its being entered until upheld at an expense of 40,0001. or its final decision. Now, how very bene- 50,0001. a year, he would rather the goficial it would be to the suitors, if, like the vernment had the superintendence of House of Lords, which now disposed of a them, that there might be some responScotch appeal in six months, the Privy sibility or check. He would move,
“ That Council could be brought to use something there be laid before the House an Account like similar despatch. Upon an average of the gross amount of all sums, received of twelve
years there had been only nine and paid by the Commissioners for the Resittings a year; so that, with all the desireduction of the National Debt, on account VOL, XVIII,
of Banks for Savings (including Friendly | NAVARIN - MINISTERIAL EXPLANA-
The Earl of Carnarvon said, it was with
ships that his noble friend (lord Holland) HOUSE OF LORDS.
who had given notice of a motion for toMonday, February 11.
day was, through indisposition, unable to STATE OF IRELAND.] The Earl of attend. His noble friend had four motions Darnley said, he wished to put a question ready, which he had intended to move to the noble duke opposite, with respect that day. All those motions were more to a subject of the greatest importance. or less connected with the question of our He need scarcely add, that he alluded to relations with Turkey, and the measures the State of Ireland. Notwithstanding taken by the government of this country what had passed on a former occasion, relative to the affairs of Greece. Two of when a question had been put to the noble those motions were such only as tended duke, to know whether it was in the con- to illustrate the views of his noble friend templation of ministers to realize a report respecting the nature of our relations with which had been spread abroad, that Turkey. Those questions it was not his though his majesty's government were intention to touch upon, leaving to his averse to granting the whole of what the noble friend, on his recovery, to use his Roman Catholics asked for, it was intended own discretion in bringing them forward. to grant some part,-notwithstanding that The other two which he intended to subthe noble duke bad answered, that his mit to their lordships, were merely motions majesty's government had no intention of for additional papers, to enable their lordadopting any such measure, still he could ships to make a fair estimate of the policy not suppose but that the noble duke must of this country ; which he was convinced be convinced, that Ireland was in a very it was impossible for their lordships to do, unsatisfactory and alarming state. He, relying solely on the papers which had therefore, wished to know if it was the been laid before them. Another object intention of ministers to bring forward of these motions—no less important than any proposition relating to that country ? the former-was to obtain additional inThough he was persuaded, that nothing formation, that we might pay the debt effectual could be done without granting which was due to our gallant officers concessions to the Catholics, still he hoped engaged in the battle of Navarin : for that something might be done to alleviate although the country was fairly, fully, and the unfortunate condition of Ireland. If perfectly satisfied with their meritorious the noble duke should state, that there conduct, from reading the newspapers and was no intention on the part of the go- the gazette, which communicated the invernment to bring forward any measure, telligence of that battle, yet their lordships he should then feel it his duty, in pur- were far from possessing that information suance of the notice which he had given which would enable them to know what last session, to move for a committee to were the instructions given to the cominquire into the state of the population of manders of the combined feet, or whether Ireland, to see what measures can be those instructions were well or ill carried adopted for its amelioration.
into execution. He was sure that every The Duke of Wellington said, he felt as noble lord would agree with him when he much anxiety with regard to the situation stated, that there was no object which of Ireland, as any noble lord present ; but Englishmen had more at heart, than to he had no intention of bringing forward give to every gallant officer—and in this any measure of the description alluded to instance the officer was one of the best by the noble earl. There would be mea- and bravest in the service the opportunity sures brought forward in the course of the of clearing up any insinuations which session, in the other House ; but the might have been thrown out against his measures contemplated by his friends and character, and of removing any surmise, colleagues were not those which the noble that his conduct was not as satisfactory to earl had in contemplation.
the existing government as it was to the
late administration, to the country at TURKEY AND Greece-BATTLE OF large, and to his Sovereign, who had
testified his approbation of his conduct by not to be permitted to the governments in conferring honours upon With re- Europe, having the power and the means spect to both these objects, he was sure to put an end to those horrors, to do so, their lordships would see the necessity for but that they should be compelled to further information. The information tolerate them to infinity—such an abstract which he intended to move for would be, principle he never could admit. But, if in the first instance, for a copy of the in their lordships considered that the effect structions which had been sent by the of a contracted conflict between two combined powers to each of the officers powers on all the countries around, would commanding the allied fleet, which had be to familiarize mankind to scenes of horbeen signed by the ambassadors of each ror, that was a further reason for bringing power at London. After that, he should those horrors to an end. This was one of move, with a view to ascertain how the the grounds which justified a case of inofficers had acted upon those instructions, terposition; and he thought that, in the for copies of any communication or de- case of Greece, a sufficient case had been spatch relative to the circumstances which made out, on behalf of suffering humanity, preceded the battle of Navarin, which may to call upon the great powers to interpose. have been previously or subsequently to There was, however, in all cases of interthat event received from admiral Codring- position, a danger to be apprehended. ton, or any other officer. He could not Pretences were often made to carry into anticipate any difficulty which government execution plans of ambition, in the name could feel to lay before the House both of suffering humanity. But what was the those communications, but he would say, situation of the government of this country? that if they were withheld, the country The government found that those powers and the House would be left in a most which would have had the means of availawkward, embarrassing, and unsatisfactory ing themselves, for such views of ambition, situation, with respect to circumstances of of the distracted state of the belligerent the utmost importancé.—The only part of country, were willing to waive all such the policy of his majesty's government views, and to unite cordially, in a league upon which their lordships were enabled with the government of this country, to to form any thing like a judgment from interpose to the extent of restoring tranthe papers laid before them, was merely quillity, and with a complete abstinence as to the right, in the first instance, and of all pursuits of ambition. The next next as to the policy, of interfering at all question was one of great importance, and between the Greeks and the Turks. With which had occurred in all ages and a view to come to an opinion upon that countries; namely, as to the right and subject, their lordships had sufficient in policy of interference, whenever our information in the protocol, the treaty, and terest was affected, directly or indirectly, the additional article to the treaty, which by the continuation of a distracted state were the whole of the documents before of things in another country. It was a them. There were some persons who very short time-only a few hours-since maintained, that no case can be made out his noble friend had informed him of his to justify or to excuse an interference with inability to attend, and had requested him the internal policy of foreign nations. To to move for that information which he had that opinion, thus broadly laid down, he intended to move for himself. At so short could not accede. Upon the propriety of a notice, it had been impossible for him non-interference he felt much less strongly to look far back, or to consult any thing than other persons, whose opinions he beyond the page of history. It did occur considered of great weight; but still he to him, however, that there must be many thought that the history of all times, and instances similar to the present, of interof our country, teemed with examples in ference in the behalf of the unfortunate which such interpositions had taken place. subjects of other countries, proceeding In the instance of interposition between from the cause of the difference of religion. the Greeks and Turks, two grounds for Looking back to that glorious period of such interposition might be assumed ; our history, the reign of Elizabeth, he either that of right or of expediency. But found many instances of interference with if it were contended that admitting, as the internal policy of foreign nations, by the treaty states, that horrors disgraceful granting supplies, and even by invasion, to humanity were perpetrated, still it ought by landing troops, and by carrying on military operations in foreign countries, peatedly asked to give it up by the Spanish in aid of the revolted subjects of other ambassador, refused to deliver it out of powers, while we remained in amity and her hands. In 1578, troops were raised peace with them, and in an alliance stronger in England for the service of the Rothan that which existed with Turkey; manists, though Elizabeth had actually and while the ambassadors of those powers entered into a treaty with the Prince of were in London, and the English ambas- the Netherlands. A manifesto was soon sadors at the courts of the respective after published, stating that the alliance powers.—He would refer to the few in between the kings of England and the stances of interference which he had Prince of the Netherlands was not so selected. The first instance which occur- much between persons as between states ; red to him was during the minority of and, from those words, Elizabeth drew the Charles 9th of France, three years after inference, that she might assist the inhabithe peace which had been concluded by tants of the Low Countries, without inthe treaty of Chateau-Cambresis, the fringing that treaty. That, then, was a terms of which stated; that it should never treaty of alliance; and, in stating these be lawful for either of the contracting facts, he was merely calling to the recolprinces to give protection to the rebellious lection of their lordships circumstances subjects of the other, but that they should which were known to them; namely, that deliver them up to their respective masters. during those periods it was the practice Here was a treaty, by which the contract- and the policy of this country to support, ing parties were specifically bound to give in different parts of Europe, the revolted up the revolted subjects of each other. subjects of other powers against their legiIt was in 1562, three years subsequent to timate sovereigns; and, in one instance, that treaty, that the Prince of Condé, to which he had alluded, where she was heading a rebellion against the government bound by a treaty-something more like of his country, applied to Elizabeth for an alliance than could be proved to exist Succour. That queen assisted him, by with Turkey—to deliver the rebellious subthe grant of 100,000 crowns and 6,000 in-jects up to their sovereign.-There were, fantry. Those troops landed in France, at various times, instances of interposition, and remained there during the military We were ourselves the victims of the apoperations and unsuccessful campaign of plication of this principle. Upon one the Prince of Condé, and, during all that memorable occasion, when Mr. Pitt was time, England continued in peace with in power, he had always heard the policy France. Another instance occurred in of this government commended. He 1585, at which time Elizabeth sent troops alluded to the policy of this country, in to the amount of 6,000, as well as arms conjunction with Prussia, with respect to and money, to the assistance of the Hugue- the revolution in Holland, which took nots, while she remained during the whole place in 1787, when that revolution was period at peace with the court of Spain. put an end to by the sudden march of the Another case of interposition was that of duke of Brunswick against Amsterdam. the Low Countries. The Low Countries, That act of policy had been greatly adowing to religious differences, had revolted mired; for it really had become a quesfrom the crown of Spain--from the do- tion, whether this country should endeaminion of their legitimate prince; for vour to maintain her connexion with Holthere could be no question as to his legiti- land, or allow that connexion to be transmacy. They were people fighting for their ferred to France, out of whose influence religious freedom, ‘and precisely in the that revolution had arisen. He had always same situation as the Greeks. Here we heard that act praised as being one of the found that, in 1568, a Spanish squadron, wisest acts of Mr. Pitt's administration. laden with a good deal of money, being The history of Europe, since those years, pursued by some French privateers, took had been full of instances of interference refuge in an English harbour. The money with the internal government of foreign with which the ships were laden was in- states. Whatever, therefore, might be tended for the duke of Alva, in order to our feelings respecting the policy of interenable him to continue with effect the war ference in the Greek question, the facts against the insurgents. As soon as Eliza- of precedents and of usage were estabbeth discovered that fact, she actually in- lished; and upon a question between right tercepted the money; and, though re- and usage, how could we hope, by our
black-letter law, to bring the question to powerful from its extent and position. Now, a decision? It might be contended, that he would ask whether any one could have the principle of non-interference ought looked without anxiety at the state of the not to be departed from, and their lord- Turkish empire- could have seen the disships might concur in it; but, if we did tracted condition of that country, and not that, we should do still better by getting have felt that the balance of power in the rid of all alliances, shutting ourselves up east of Europe was in danger of being within our own circle, and letting all other broken from hour to hour. Not only had countries go to ruin. If we were, how- civil war endured for a long period on ever, to interfere in the affairs of Europe, land, but it had been prosecuted at sea we must be guided by policy, and by those with extraordinary vigour. Could noble principles so often and so signally recog-lords believe that such a state of things nized and asserted. The broad principle was not calculated to affect the interests of non-interference should, he would of every nation in Europe ? Could any admit, be the foundation of all treaties one suppose that such a state of things between foreign powers; but he would would not give rise to violations of neucontend, that it ought to be relaxed, should trality, and occasion a war, not between imperious circumstances demand it. The one or two powers, but the greater part principle of the Holy Alliance had been of Europe ?' The wise policy of the Engthat of interference; but it had been uni- lish government had been, to unite in a formly exerted, not to put down anarchy, common treaty three powers, which, perits professed object, but to crush all at- haps, had never before been so long or so tempts at establishing free and liberal cordially united, or with so much fairness institutions. Was that a species of inter- and sincerity, for the purpose of interposference that ought to be applauded, while ing between Turkey and Greece-not for an interference with a contrary object was the dismembering of that empire-not to be condemned? Let their lordships with the same views as three great powers look to the proceedings of the Holy had interposed in the affairs of PolandAlliance, and to the present case of inter- but to lay aside, in the event of war, all ference. They would find this difference excuses and pretences for aggrandizement, between them; the interference of the and direct their united efforts to restore Holy Alliance had been uniformly directed tranquillity, and to give an opportunity of to put down the liberties of nations, the prolonging the peace, which, from the other was for the purpose of raising a state of the Turkish empire, was likely to people dear to us, not only from associa- be disturbed. The only question between tions of old recollections, but from the those who condemned, and those who brave and wonderful resistance which they approved of the present act of interference had opposed to their oppressors. He was, whether the step which had been thought he had now proved enough—in taken was more likely to involve the great establishing, that the practice of inter- powers of Europe in a conflict, or to preference on behalf of suffering humanity, vent such a danger. Let their lordships was not an innovation for which no prece- look to the policy of Russia, to its position, dent could be produced, but that it had and then ask themselves, whether it were long been known to European policy. It possible that such a civil war should exist only remained for him to show whether or in Turkey for any length of time without not the principle had, in the present in- a military interference. Let them constance, been wisely applied. It might be sider, that the Greek religion existed said, that the instances of interference on through the Russian dominions; and, the part of this country, which he had if Turkey should wage war against that mentioned, were such as suited her policy. religion, was it in the nature of man that They were, however, instances of danger the Russians should remain calm spectators to this country: but what danger could of the destruction he had almost said arise from the state of Turkey ? Now, he annihilation of the Greeks? He felt never would admit that Turkey and Greece rather surprised at their long forbearance; formed no part of the balance of Europe. but, when in so peaceful a temper, and There was a time when they did not. with such moderation, the Russians in. Russia also formed a great and most im- vited this country to put an end to the portant part of the balance of Europe. It wretched state of affairs which existed in was a state neighbouring on Turkey, I Greece, giving us assurances that they