old bye-law, not of the corporation, but of fore, therefore, confidence was placed in the court of Aldermen. The Corporation the right hon. gentleman, he wished to had set their faces entirely against it, and know what he meant to propose ; to hear begged of the court of Aldermen to repeal his proposition; and especially to hear the it.

names of the persons whom he intended Mr. Hun said, there were two classes should form this committee. He was quite of persons in the city of London, the one sure that the right hon. gentleman would remarkable for just and liberal conduct, himself see that this was neither an extrathe other for conduct directly the reverse. ordinary nor an unreasonable request. He The gaols bore testimony to the illiberality thought the House ought not to vote any of courts of Aldermen, who had set on seamen until this explanation had been foot prosecutions which government, made. To ask for a vote of seamen for greatly to its credit, had generally dis- six months was going too far. In all procountenanced. He verily believed, that if bability they would not get any report the law allowed them to revert to the fire from that committee, until late in the sesand the faggot, the court of Aldermen sion; and if so, the whole affair would would take advantage of it.

pass over till next year, and the public Ordered to lie on the table.

would derive no benefit whatever from the

appointinent of the committee. They NAVY Estimates.) Sir G. Cockburn, ought, first of all, to have a pledge that in moving that the House should resolve what was to be done would be done that itself into a Committee of Supply, said that, year. it was his intention to ask for a vote of sea- Mr. Peel said, he certainly had no right men for six months, and not for the whole to complain of the observations of the hon. year. He had felt it his duty to take this gentleman. The ground he had taken course, because a Finance Committee was was a perfectly fair parliamentary ground; about to be appointed, and because it but he entreated the hon. member to hear was the course which had been adopted, him, and he thought he would see that his under similar circumstances, in 1817. objections were not so strong as he ap

Mr. Maberly said, that as the course peared to think them. The estimate was adopted in 1817 had been alluded to, he founded upon the number of men which it rose to object to that course being so es- was thought necessary to maintain for the sentially deviated from in the present in- service of the country. It was the prostance. He was aware that the right hon. vince of the sovereign to state that numSecretary for the Home Department had ber to the House : and the only vote that given notice of a motion for the appoint- the House would be called upon to pass ment of a committee to inquire into the fi- would be, for the wages and victuals of nances of the country, but then, in 1817, these men, not for the whole year, but for no supplies were voted for ten days after six months; in order that, if the committhe message

of the Prince Regent had been tee of finance found it necessary to make sent dowu to the House. A very different any alteration in this part of the expendicourse, however, seemed now about to be ture, they might do so the more easily. adopted. When the House was last year Now, in this the precedent of 1817 had promised, that such a committee should been their guide. In 1817, the vote had be appointed, every measure of finance been asked for a few days later than it was postponed, because the House was was now, because, to defer it, would be to convinced that Mr. Canning desired ear- inconvenience the public service. As to nestly to have the financial affairs of the the precedent of 1817, it had been folcountry thoroughly investigated. The lowed in every respect, with the exception right hon. Secretary opposite must, how that the names of the persons were not ever, see that the House could not give known. The hon. member had stated, that confidence to him, which it had re- that he could not have confidence in him, posed in the riglit hon. gentleman now no because he had long been a member of more. That right hon. gentleman had government, and had never brought foracceded to the wishes of the House; but ward any motion of this kind. This, howthe right hon. Secretary opposite, who had ever, was inaccurate. It so happened, so long been a member of his majesty's that he was a member of the government government, had never yet acceded to the in 1817, and that he also was a member importunities which had been urged. Be- 1 of that finance committee; from which it

Would seem, that he was by no means ad- ja member of Mr. Canning's cabinet, he Verse to such inquiries. But he would could not undertake to state what were tell the hon. member, that the question of the intentions of that cabinet; but this he appointing a finance committee had beeu would say, that whatever they were, they agitated in lord Liverpool's cabinet, and if must change and vary with circumstances. that nobleman had continued at the head A material change had taken place in our of the government, such a committee naval stations in the Mediterranean, since would actually have been appointed. As a notice of the committee was first given. matters now stood, what had been his con- An augmentation of our fleet had been duct? Why, the very day he had taken his rendered necessary at various times, during seat in the House, he had given notice of the last ten years of peace. At one time, this motion.

that augmentation was required in the Sir John Sebright said, that his oppo- West Indies, to protect our commerce sition was, and should be, given to mea- from piratical depredations; at another, sures, and not to men. If it could be the Burmese war obliged us to turn our shown to him, that the public service would attention to the East. Again, an augbe impeded by the refusal of the present mentation of our fleet in the Tagus was vote, he would support it; but no such rendered necessary; and lastly, in the case had yet been made out. He trusted Mediterranean. Thus, from time to time, that the government would proceed volun- we had been under the necessity of making tarily to measures of economy and re-unexpected increases, which particular trenchment; but if it did not take that emergencies required. Notwithstanding r'ourse, it would be the duty of the House this exertion, the government now asked to enforce it. He repeated that he was only for a vote of thirty thousand men; a not desirous to oppose the present minis- number which could hardly by possibility try, especially since it contained one right be reduced. It was true that the amount hon. gentleman peculiarly calculated to was not considerably less than heretofore ; take an extended view of the national fi- but, with the same means, a great deal nances; but for twenty years past the pub- more was to be effected. To take the vote lic money had been voted away, session after for three months would be a deception session, with a facility which he must cha- upon the House ; because, if the finance racterize as indecent. For himself, he could committee should object to the employsee no possible danger to the public ser-ment of thirty thousand men, it would not vice in taking the present vote only for the be possible, within the term of three term of three months.

months, to reduce them. It was right to Mr. D. W. Harvey wished to know, add, that the estimates had of late been whether the present ministers, on coming reduced so low, that there were no bainto their places, had found any plans of lances in hand, and that the service would economy matured by their predecessors ? actually be distressed for want of the vote The late Mr. Canning, in giving notice of before the House. the finance committee, had stated, that Mr. Hume said, that the charges of the ministers would apply themselves diligently country were going on, year after year, into the reduction of the public expenditure. creasing. He would not, therefore, conUnder these circumstances, he was desirous sent to vote a single shilling until the estiof knowing whether any progress had been mates were regularly before the House. made towards the reduction of the public He should be glad to hear whether the reburthens by the predecessors of the present cent government had devoted any of its ministry? The frequent recurrence of attention to the subject of economy. He struggles for ascendancy, of defeats, and did not object to the present ministry; nor of changes, tended greatly to weaken the would he oppose them, while they took a confidence of the country in the govern- course likely to be beneficial to the counment, and distracted the attention of mi- try; but he did insist, that it was criminal nisters from a business to which their to grant them any vote, until they declared whole attention should be devoted. He what the expenditure of the whole year was unwilling to obstruct any necessary would be likely to require. There could supply; yet he thought that ministers be no difficulty, if ministers meant ought to explain to the House their inten- fairly, in their doing this. The right tions.

hon. Secretary opposite told the House, Sir G. Cockburn said, that as he was not that it was the province of the sovereign

year after

to recommend what the number of men no appearance of reduction. Last year w wanted for the defence of the country had a deficiency of 3,000,0001., and he re should be. It might be the province of gretted to observe, that that deficiency wa the sovereign to recommend; but it was going on. In looking at our expenditure for the House to decide whether that re- he did not object to particular items, bu commendation should be acquiesced in; to the general character of the whole and he, for one, was certainly disposed not He did not think that the country could to acquiesce in it, until the whole of the maintain the principles of free trade, while expense was before the House. The fi- its expenditure was continued on its prenance committee of 1817 had considered sent scale. If he understood the princi19,000 men sufficient for the service of the ples on which we were endeavouring to country, and had held out a prospect of carry on free trade, one of the means by still further reduction. It was the duty of which we were to do so was a reduction in members to look at the enormous establish the price of all articles of produce and ments of the present moment, and to be manufacture, so as to meet the competisatisfied that they could not be dispensed tion of other countries in the foreign marwith.

ket. In order to effect this, the price of The House having resolved itself into provisions must be reduced, and the curthe committee, sir Ğ. Cockburn moved, rency altered; the whole of the landed “ That 30,000 seamen, including 9,000 and manufacturing interests must submit marines be granted for the service of the to a reduction of their income by onenavy, for six months.”

fourth or even one-third, to put the counMr. Hume opposed the grant, and de- | try in a condition to meet the new state clared that the legislature was going on, of things. But, while such reductions

year,

in a course of disgracefully were made, were those who were paid wasteful expenditure, exceeding the in- large salaries by the public to be the come of the country, and making up the only exceptions ? Was no reduction to be deficiency by the issue of Exchequer-bills. made in salaries, which were so heavy a In 1792, the whole expenditure of the es- burthen on the public? Many of those tablishments of the country had been a if compared with the salaries of 1792, and little more than 5,000,0001. Now it the price of provisions at that period,

. amounted to 24,000,0001. It was impos- would be found fit items for reduction. It sible to go on tolerating this enormous was impossible that the country could fuland uncalled-for increase. He protested fil its engagements with the public creditor, against this course, and would take an op- unless reductions were made in our expenportunity of putting his objection to it on diture. The surplus of income above exrecord.

penditure was 1,132,2261., while the Sir J. Wrottesley said, he could not al- amount paid on account of the army

and low this first vote to pass without making navy pensions was 2,800,0001. The fact a few remarks. He did not so much ob- was, that there was a real deficiency of ject to the particular vote now before the between four and five millions. There committee, as to the fact, that they had was indeed, a sinking fund; but how was not a full statement before them of the it made up? Not by a surplus of revenue whole of the estimates. Great expecta- but by borrowing. Would the country

. tions were held out from the appointment bear to be taxed to that amount, oppressed of the finance committee. He hoped they as it already was with such a load of taxwould be realised; but he could not conation ? ceal his fears that this committee would be Mr. John Wood complained of the want used, as former committees had been; that of clearness in the accounts laid before the it would be made the 'scape-goat for the House. He thought that any two bankers' proposition of fresh taxes, which the mi- clerks well acquainted with business, could nistry would not dare to propose on their put them in a shape in which they could own responsibility. He owned he had had be understood. At present, they were great hopes that the right hon. gentleman, nearly unintelligible. whose loss he, in common with the country, Mr. Maberly said, that the amount of the so sincerely deplored, would have been en- sinking fund was now fixed at 5,000,0001, abled to meet the financial difficulties of which must be provided for, whether there the country. Those difficulties could not was an excess of income to that amount pow be concealed; yet at present he saw or not. As the act stood, it was impera

TELLER.

tive to make good that sum as a sinking-1 After some further conversation, the fund, even should there be a deficiency of committee divided : For the motion 48, revenue. In the present year it was made | Against it 15. Majority 33. up by a balance of income of 1,132,2261.,

List of the Minority. and the remainder by an issue of Exche

Dawson, Alex. quer-bills. This was not the fault of mi

Robinson, G. R. nisters, but of parliament; which said, Guest, 3. T.

Gordon, R.

Stuart, John that there should be a Sinking-fund to that Harvey, D. W.

Waithman, ald,

Wilbraham, George amount, without reference to any excess of Hume, J,

Wood, Alderman income. Parliament decreed, that there Maberly, colonel Wood, John. should be an extinction of the debt, to Martin, John the amount of 5,000,0001. annually; and Monck, J. B. Maberly, John. yet in fourteen days it departed from that On the next resolution, “That 1,579,0001. principle, by voting a permanent charge be granted for paying and victualling the of 2,800,0001, towards paying the army said men,” and navy pensions. He had no doubt, Mr. Hume complained of this attempt however, that the present year would be the to vote money without notice having been last of that arrangement.

given. In the notices of the day it was Mr. Secretary Huskisson said, the hon. stated that a supply of seamen would be gentleman was correct in what he said moved, but nothing was said about their respecting the Sinking-fund being payable wages or victuals. There was a considerout of the consolidated fund, whether able amount of unappropriated balances there was or was not an excess of income. in the Exchequer, which the government As to the army and navy pensions, the might make use of without calling on that last instalment would be paid in July next, House for further sums, until the promised and it would be for the finance com- financial explanation had been given. mittee to consider that as well as the other Mr. Huskisson said, he was lost in asbranches of our expenditure. He thought tonishment at what had fallen from the there was nothing extraordinary in the hon. member. If he had not so often vote now asked for; as it was usual to heard his voice in committees of supply, give ministers credit for a vote of this kind he should have supposed that it was some on their own responsibility. The increase of extremely young member who had enterour naval force this year was not a subject tained a notion, that, because there was a for the consideration of a finance committee; balance in the Exchequer, it was at the and therefore no delay of the present vote disposal of government. Did the hon. could be necessary on that account. The member know so little of the history of question of the policy of that increase the constitution—did he so little undermight be entered into at present, or at any stand the character of a committee of supfuture period ; but the finance committee ply—as to suppose that, were there milcould not enter into the subject of the lions in the Exchequer, the government number of men which might be necessary. could touch a single shilling without a That was a part of its duty which, he was grant from parliament? The hon. memconvinced, the House would not delegate ber did not know the A, B, C of the proto it. The amount of force necessary gress of supply if he did not know the would be proposed by government, and truth of this. If the hon. member had the House would deal with it as it thought found out the secret of providing wages fit; but the finance committee would have and victuals without inoney, he had indeed nothing to do with it, though it might in- made a most brilliant discovery. quire as to the amount of expense by Mr. Hume said, that if he had not yet which such force could be maintained. learnt his A, B, C, he would endeavour to As to the vote before the committee, he study his letters. He maintained, howwould only add, that whenever the subject ever, that the right hon. gentleman was of the treaty which had been referred to wrong in the position which he took. The should come before the House, he should committee had only received notice that a be ready to defend its policy, and to con- vote of seamen would be moved for, and tend that it was not an attempt to inter- now they were called upon to grant money fere in the internal affairs of an independent for their support, which was decidedly state, but that it was called for by circum-contrary to the practice of parliament. stances which could be met in no other way. Mr. Huskisson undertook to say, that ever since the House kad voted the wages | miseries which its suitors frequently enand victuals of seamen, it had done so in dured-miseries not confined to days or precisely the same terms as those which months, but which often extended to years, the hon. member now asserted to be so —yes, to many years. Many of those irregular ; with this exception, that the suitors, to his own certain knowledge, words wear and tear” were formerly in- were, in consequence of their having been troduced, but had recently been omitted kept in that court for years, either ruined to please the hon. member himself. He in their circumstances or left to linger in a defied the hon. member to prove that since gaol. He thought it absolutely necessary the Revolution the House had ever omitted to state to the House that for which he to vote wages and victuals, when the pa- hoped every man would give him credit ; pers stated only that a certain number of namely, that he warred against no indiseamen were to be voted.

vidual, that he had no personal hostility Mr. Croker said, that the vote had been to any man who at present presided, or framed in the same manner as at present who had formerly presided, in that court. for the last nineteen years.

All he wished to attack was, the system; Mr. Alderman Wood said, it was hard and he was convinced that the public felt upon his hon. friend to tell him that he with him as to the abuses of that court, did not know his A, B, C. He was sure which had increased, and gone on increashis hon. friend did know his letters—he ing, until the evil amounted to a denial meant so far as regarded taxation ; for he of all justice. He knew very well that the knew nothing of his hon. friend's gram- member who brought forward to the notice matical learning

of the House any material and real grievMr. Hume said, he was not to be put ance in the administration of the law, had down by such observations as had been a great deal to contend with. He had addressed to him that night. If person

reason to know that the evil was not alities were resorted to, he could retaliate. assailed, but that the person exposing it He still thought the motion improper. was likely to be attacked. Some persons

Mr. Secretary Peel said, that the hon. looked on it as quite horrible, to suppose member had certainly misunderstood what for a moment that any individual had' a had fallen from his right hon. friend, if he right to meddle with an ancient system; supposed that he meant any thing per

and he recollected what had happened to sonally offensive to him. He had merely

himself some years ago, when in conjuncstated, that the hon, member seemed to be

tion with an hon. friend of his, now no unacquainted with the A, B, C, of the pro- more, the late Mr. Ponsonby, who had

, cess of a committee of supply. There was been lord Chancellor of Ireland, he intronothing in that observation which ought duced a motion for an account of the fees to give the hon. member uneasiness. taken in Chancery. He was then told by After a desultory conversation, the re

noble lords in the other House, that it was solution was agreed to.

a horrible thing to institute such an in

quiry. Many men thought it improper to HOUSE OF COMMONS.

interfere at all with an old system, sagaTuesday, February 12.

ciously concluding, that because it was

old it must necessarily be good. Another Court of CHANCERY.] Mr. M. A. impediment was thrown in the way of Taylor said, he rose to renew his entreaty those who desired reform, by the conduct to the House, that they would again take of individuals who profited by the existing into their earnest consideration the present state of things; for they all knew that men state of the Court of Chancery. He could did not like to give up great patronage assure them that in any statement he and great emoluments. Patronage was, might have to make, he did not intend to however, one thing, and emolument anoexaggerate the existing evil. Although ther ; but if, by any act of his, or by any he believed that the motion could not be suggestion he might make, it appeared objected to by any individual, still he that the income of the lord Chancellor was thought it was only fair to the House and likely not to prove sufficient, the public, to the country to state, not, however, at he was sure, was not so niggardly as not any length, his view of the subject, and to do the individual holding that office thus to place before the House the real full justice.--There was another reason evils of this court and to point out the why this subject had been so long suffered