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administration did not leave the work of re- clause still more complicated than it was duction entirely to the Finance Com- at present. This would not be the case mittee; for, if he would look at the esti- with the Marine Mutiny-bill, and for this mates, he would see that they had re- reason; that the marines, in time of peace, duced the expense, by so large a sum as were generally stationed at home. If, 1,100,0001. He was not saying that in the then, the course which he proposed left present distressed state of the commerce open the revision of the numbers for the of the country, a reduction of 1,100,0001. year, just as if the grant had been for six was such a reduction as the country months, he trusted that the committee ought to be satisfied with : it was, would not object to it. The hon. member however, an earnest that the late admi- for Aberdeen evidently supposed that the nistration really wished to reduce the vote had been for six months, and it was public expenditure.

only at the moment that he was going to Lord Palmerston said, he wished to be move his amendment that he found out allowed to explain upon two points. It his mistake. That circumstance showed had been asked why they should vote a how little he would have gained if he had given number of men for six months, proposed the vote for six months instead when the number for the year must be re- of twelve. The hon. member had comcited in the Mutiny-bill; a recital which plained, that he had made certain alterawould form a conclusion against any sub- tions in the constitution of the colonial sequent alteration of it? Now, he begged corps. There was actually no possibility leave to inform the committee, that the of pleasing the hon. member. If the goMutiny-bill recited the number of men vernment did not improve its old arrangevoted for the year, as a foundation for the ments, the hon. member taunted it for its code of laws by which the Crown governed attachment to them ; and if it threw the the army in time of peace; but nobody old arrangements into a better form, the ever supposed that by that recital the hon. member taunted it with not having Crown was bound to keep up the number altered them sooner. That was a bad of men enumerated in it. The Mutiny- mode of encouraging public men to imbill recited a greater number of men as prove the system on which their predebeing employed for the service of the year, cessors in office had acted. The comthan the Crown could ever bring into, or mittee would see clearly the reason of the than ever were actually in, the realm. No hon. member's dissatisfaction with these difficulty, therefore, could occur upon that new arrangements—they deprived himn of head; because, if the Crown should be his usual topics for a speech on the army inclined to disband the army entirely, it estimates; a deprivation at which the would not be prevented from doing so by committee would not, he believed, feel the large number of men recited in the much regret, as the retrenchment of the Mutiny-bill as being engaged for the year. hon. gentleman's speeches was one of the It was consequently clear, that even though retrenchments which the House was particuthe House should agree to a vote for a larly anxious to make [a laugh). In defence given number of men for the year, and of those arrangements he would merely should insert that number in the Mutiny- observe, that it appeared better to him to bill, it would not thereby be prevented place the military expenses of the colonies from afterwards reducing it to such a in one department of the estimates, and number as a committee might think proper their civil expenses in another. The hon. to advise. The objection, therefore, that member had stated his wish to have a rewas started upon this ground, could not duction of ten thousand men now, and apply to the vote under discussion. He another reduction of ten thousand more at had been asked, what convenience the the end of six months, and so on until the service would gain by having the Mutiny- army was reduced to the numbers which bill passed for the whole year, instead of composed it in 1823. He had asked what

If any gentleman would reason there was for our maintaining a look at the last clause of the Mutiny-bill, larger military force now than we did then? he would see that its continuance was The hon. member ought to have recollimited to different times in different lected that the force of 1823 was a replaces, according to their distance from duction from a much larger force which England. Now, if they broke all those we had kept on foot in the years 1821 and periods into two, they would render that 1822. The service of the different colonies

half a year.

could not be carried on at a smaller amount | another and a more obvious effect of the of troops, without imposing such a degree disbanding of regiments would be to deof duty on the different regiments, as crease the number of regiments, and conwould not be fair in a time of peace. It sequently to increase the amount and was thus that the augmentation had gone burthen of duty upon those who remained. on, not with a particular view to this or The period of foreign service, must, in that that particular colony, but upon the general case, be prolonged, and the period of principle, that there should be a disposable home service diminished. He was sure surplus of five thousand men, prepared for that the House would not think 20,0001. any exigency. He would appeal to the or 30,0001. a-year well gained by the imevents of the last year or two to show that position of such hardship on the military there was nothing unreasonable in that force of the country. He would only add, policy. Had government not acted upon that he was ready either to discuss the that principle, it would have been impos- amount required at the present moment, sible for this country to have gone to the or, as he would certainly prefer, to postaid of Portugal so speedily as she had pone that discussion to a period of the done. It was not to keep down the popu- session, when they would be better enabled lation at home that such a force, or that to look at the subject in all its bearings. any force, was required. Happily, the Mr. Calcraft said, he could not underdisposition of the people constituted a stand why, taking a vote for six months, better guarantee for their tranquillity than it should be objected to take, at the same the presence of any force, however for- time, a Mutiny-bill for six months. midable. He would state a case to show Mr. P. Thomson expressed an anxiety the hardship to which the service must be to have some guarantee from the noble exposed, by limiting the number below the lord, ensuring the House not only that present amount. There were two regi- they were not pledged to any specific ments at that moment under orders for number of troops by the vote required, but foreign service. They had each of them that there was a disposition on the part of been six years on the home station. But government to reduce the number as low then, at the time of their return home, as possible. It was too much the habit of six years ago, they had experienced seven-government to refer them, upon all

questeen years of uninterrupted foreign service, tions of economy to the Finance Committee; either in the East or West Indies, or at but they were bound to take care that Ceylon. Was it necessary for him to say between the two stools the public did not more, to show that we had not a greater come to the ground. The Colonial Secredisposable force than was required for the tary, and the Secretary at War, seemed to security of the colonies and the relief of differ as to the functions of that committee. the troops ?' But it was asked, why, if One thought it had nothing to do with the government were to determine on the re- naval and military establishments, the duction of five thousand men, they reduce other that it had. All he would say was, by individuals, instead of proceeding at that if it had nothing to do with these once to disband by battalions? He would establishments, he did not see why the answer, that government did not discharge noble lord should refer them to that coma single man; they only abstained from mittee. At all events, he hoped that as recruiting to fill up the vacancies as they they were called upon for a vote, they took place, and by this operation performed would have an undersianding from the the business of reduction by insensible de- noble lord, that there should be a diminugrees, and with the least possible incon- tion of expense, instead of the increase venience. One of the advantages of this which they were justified in apprehending, course was, that no pension was granted, They were told by the noble lord, that as no man was discharged. It was true, there was to be a reduction of five thousand that by the other system of disbanding by men ; but he was sorry to say that such regiments, 20,0001. or 30,0001. might be assurances afforded him little consolation. saved ; but was that any equivalent for the The House would recollect, that they were evil of crippling our defensive means, by told of great reductions in the half pay and destroying the skeletons of regiments ? pensic: lists before ; and they would also A new regiment was well known to be a recollect how far those promises bad been very different thing from an addition to realized. Were the half-pay and the pen. the skeleton of au old regiment. But I sions reduced? On the contrary, had they not been increased ? Not, he would allowed the country to get rid of the staff, admit, in the last year as compared with while it increased the efficient force of the the year before, but in'each of the succeed- army. For these reasons, he was decidedly ing years as compared with the year in of opinion, that the system of retrenchment which the pledge was given. The noble might be further applied than the noble lord seemed at a loss to know how the lord seemed disposed to carry it. military establishment could be reduced. Mr. Monck said, that in the few words He would answer him in the words of his he should offer, he would confine himself hon. friend—“ pacify Ireland, quiet Cana- exclusively to the dead-weight; under da:" to which he would add “ make your which head there were some items that colonies pay for their own defence, or seemed to call for examination. He was abandon them.” The noble lord had stated, aware that in that House the example of that England did not require troops to America was not likely to find admirers ; protect herself, but her colonies. Upon upon which account he would make no that understanding, he supposed Ireland appeal to the system pursued in the Amemight be considered a colony; and cer- rican army; but the example of France was {ainly she was as misgoverned as any of not regarded with the same jealousy or them. This fact seemed to point out the repugnance. The government of France remedy,—that of changing the system of was more monarchical, but, happily for her government under which expensive esta- people, less aristocratical than our own. blishments were required. If that were The power of the Crown might be less done, they might then look forward to restrained, but the interests of the people better times.


pay. Yet

were more consulted. To the practice of Colonel Davies said, that the noble lord the French army hetherefore would appeal. had instanced the case of two regiments The first point he should notice in the now under orders for foreign service, which regulations of the French army was, that had passed but six years at home after their system admitted of no such thing as having served abroad for seventeen. This the retiring of officers full case was intended to show, that the army no man could doubt of the efficiency of the did not admit of any reduction. But what French army. Another article in the deadwould become of the noble lord's argument weight, was the pensions granted to officers' if it could be shown that such instances widows, which amounted to no less a sum grew out of a system new to the army, than 143,0001. It was, he believed, only the system of dépôt companies ; and that within these few years, that pensions bethey must continue to arise so long as that came uniformly granted to the widows of system was persevered in? Those esta- officers. In former times, they used to be blishments consisted of eleven thousand granted only in particular cases, and with four hundred and twenty four rank and certain conditions, and the widow was file, which were rendered totally ineffici- obliged to declare that she did not receive ent by being scattered about in small double the amount of the pension from any detachments, and stationed in places where other source. Every man must wish to they were not wanted. The consequence see, not only the officers' widows provided was, that the battalions were frittered down for, but their children, and, if possible, to a small number; and thence arose the their children's children. But the French necessity of greater and more rapid de- had contrived a method of providing for mands for foreign service. Military men the widows without casting the burthen on were all agreed, that nothing could be more the people. There was a regulation in injurious to the service. As to the noble the French army, that no officer should lord's plan of reducing by individuals, not marry without first making a settlement by battalions, he would ask, was it neces- on his wife, in proportion to the amount sary to have a hundred and twenty bat- of his pay. He should be g!ad to know, talions as a nucleus from which to recruit why the same system might not be adopted our army in the event of war? The plan in our own service. With what face could adopted during the last war must be ad.. we read lectures to the poor on the guilt mitted to have worked well; and that was of improvident marriages, while we held to reduce, whenever reductions wer - made, out a bounty to officers to contract marriby battalions. Independently of the tes- ages without regard to the same consideratimony of experience in its favour, there tion. If officers' widows were to be was this manifest advantage,--that it pensioned, was there not as much reason


for pensioning the widow of the common a saving. In fact, many of those bills were soldier? Nothing should be done retro- funded at a loss of forty per cent. He spectively, but much might be done hoped the new ministry would put an end prospectively, for the alleviation of our to such expensive absurdities. He trusted burthens by attending to the example of that the hon.gentleman (Mr. Calcraft), who France. Supposing the English army to had such confidence in them, would urge be placed upon the same footing with that them to the good work. He entertained of France, a saving of 621,0001. would be but little hope that the reduction to the the immediate consequence.

extent of ten thousand men would be now Sir H. Vivian said, that the regiments effected, while a military chief presided at which were raised at the commencement the head of the cabinet. He was anxious, of the war were at first inefficient, in con- however, to put the question fairly before sequence of the want of skeleton regiments the country, and to show that no reason, to graft them on; though they quickly at the present moment, existed against became efficient afterwards. He did not such reduction. Did gentlemen hesitate to express his opinion, that if in wish to see Ireland tranquillized ? Let 1793 a larger and better disciplined force them effect a reduction of thirty thousand had been sent out to the continent, the men in their military establishment, and war would not have been prolonged, nor ministers would make the people of Ireland the

expense incurred have been so exces- friends, instead of keeping them down as sive. 'The hon. gentleman who spoke last, foes. As long as a great military force was did not wish too see the widows who now maintained in that country-as long as held pensions deprived of them; but the Ireland was like Jamaica, a garrisoned country would not, he was sure, wish, colony-so long the people would coneither now or at any future time, to see the tipue discontented. The country called widows of officers, who had served and bled for a reduction in the army, and there for their country, deprived of the miserable existed no reason why that reduction pittance which the humanity and justice of should not be effected. that country had provided.

Mr. Calcraft said, the hon. member was Mr. A. Dawson compared the conduct in error in charging him with inconsistency of parliament in voting away sums with- on the subject of the Sinking fund. He was out investigating its means of payment, to not an advocate of paying off the debt that of a private gentleman, who proceeded with a Sinking fund, while there existed no to arrange his establishment, without con- real surplus from which it could be taken. sidering whether he was capable of bearing But as the law stood, they must find money the expense;

He maintained that if a to keep it up, as well as every other estabSinking-fund of five millions was to be kept lishment. He could not but hail the up, the country could not support its pre- maiden ignorance exhibited by the new sent establishments, and defray the amount lords of the Treasury on this subject as a of its taxation.

happy omen. Those three gentlemen Mr. Hume said, that the noble lord had stood unpledged to all ancient fallacies, greatly mistaken his words, if he supposed and when the Finance Committee met, they that he had complained of_his having would be ready to give their support to a turned into the right way.

For his own new and improved system. He was glad part, though he was willing to give the that the new lords of the Treasury were noble lord credit whenever he went right, not implicated in the support of lord Bexhe was determined never to cease to blame ley's delusions. He expected much from him for having gone wrong so long. The the duke of Wellington. He was sincerely present system ought not to be continued. impressed with the conviction, that there As it was, every 100,0001. of stock pur- was no man more likely to make a reform chased by government was at a loss of in the expenditure of the country, with the fifteen or twenty per cent. He was sorry exception of one noble friend of his, than to hear the right hon. gentleman talk of the present head of the government. Obthe saving made by the buying up of stock jections had been raised to the present as through the means of Exchequer-bills. The being a military government. That was right hon. gentleman, in calculating the perfect nonsense. He was sure the duke saving, only looked at these bills during would not allow his military character to half their progress, He should wait until interfere with the discharge of his civil the bills were funded, before he spoke of duties.

The Committee divided : for the Grant show that the military works had been in106. For the Amendment 16. Majority, creased by about seven hundred men, and 90.

that other portions of the department had

been rendered more effective than they ORDNANCE Estimates.] Sir H. Har- were in 1820. dinge said, that in calling upon the House The resolutions were agreed to, and the to vote the Ordnance Estimates for the House resumed. current year, he had to state, that no new works had been introduced into them.

HOUSE OF LORDS. They were precisely such as had been already sanctioned by the House, and he

Monday, February 25. now merely asked for a vote of credit to Change of ADMINISTRATION-M1meet the expenditure of the Ordnance de- NISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS.) On the partment for the current year. Whenever motion that the House do adjourn, the report of the Finance Committee should The Marquis of Clanricarde said, he come under the consideration of the House, was sorry again to intrude upon their lordall the details of this department would be ships' attention, but as there was no pubopen for investigation and discussion, and lic business immediately about to come the present vote would not pledge any under the consideration of the House, he member to a particular line of conduct then. trusted he might be allowed to say a few He now moved, " that a sum not exceed words with respect to a contradiction, or a ing 783,5981. be granted on account of partial contradiction, which had been the Ordnance department for the year given, in another place, to what he had 1828."

stated to their lordships on a former occaMr. Hume did not rise to oppose the sion. He had then stated, that a declavote. If an army of ninety thousand men ration had been made by a right hon. genwere to be maintained, he did not see how tleman (Mr. Huskisson), whom he cona further reduction could be effected in ceived to be a particular friend of his lathe Ordnance. He would reserve to a mented relation; and he had asked the future period the expression of his senti- noble earl opposite (Dudley), whether he ments upon this subject.

had not heard that declaration, and wheMr. Calcraft said, that for the three or ther he did not concur in it, and know to four years during which the duke of Welo whom it referred. The right hon. gentlelington was at the head of this department, man had, however, stated at Liverpool, he had entered into a minute investigation of that, as to personal enemies of Mr. Canits various details, and it was his impres- ning, he knew of none. In comparing sion that his grace had made as much re- that statement with the declaration which duction in it as the public service would he had made to their lordships, he had no admit of. Now that the noble duke was wish to make it a matter of charge against at the head of all the departments of the the right hon. gentleman he alluded to, state, it was reasonable to conclude that that he had departed from that declarahe would enforce a system of economy tion : he only asked for an explanation of similar to that which he had established the obvious contrast which those two statewhile presiding over the Ordnance. ments presented ; and he believed he had

Sir H. Hardinge said, that since the not been clearly understood by the noble year 1820, when the Ordnance department earl opposite, who did not reply to his was confided to the duke of Wellington, question, otherwise than by eloquently to the year 1827, when he gave it up, a descanting upon the virtues of forgiveness, saving had been effected of no less than and alluding to the conduct of his lament230,0001. Indeed, when other expenses ed father-in-law, under circumstances which had been curtailed were taken into which he could never allow to be similar, consideration, the saving might be stated in any point, to those in which the right at 300,0001. a year. It had been effected, hon. Secretary of State for the Colonies not by a diminution of the military ex- and the noble earl were intermixed. As, penditure, but principally of the civil however, he had put his questions only a establishment. In one instance two hun- short time previous to the adjournment of dred and forty clerks had been discharged, the House, when several noble lords were and a saving of 147,0001. effected. While leaving their places, and when the noise this saving was thus produced, he could which was made rendered the conversation

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