{COMMONS}

(Ireland).

104

prietors greater than himself, and in sup- the state of the south of Ireland; let port of this he might refer to the state- them recollect the meetings that had taken ment of the noble Lord opposite (Lord place. He thought he had made out a Stanley), who was a landlord in Tipperary, case for the landlords of Ireland which and who had made considerable abate- that House ought to take into account. ments to his tenants. that there was not a better landlord than got their tithes he was throwing aside Every body knew, He was throwing overboard those who had the noble Lord. He would not be so unjust as to withhold his testimony to the but he thought the House ought to take those who had got possession of the land; high merit of the noble Lord on that into account those landlords who were point. The noble Lord had stated, that liable for tithes, and who had not received he had made an abatement to his tenants, one farthing of them. It might be said, and that he had fixed the rent with refer- let those landlords sue their tenants, and ence to tithes, at a certain sum; and that compel them to pay. But he would ask, he had great difficulty in enforcing pay- would not the landlords find it hard to ment. But others had not the same means of enforcing payment as the noble it so impracticable to obtain with the aid recover these tithes which the state found Lord, because the noble Lord gave a be- of the police, the military, and all the neficial interest to his tenants, who were machinery which the Government could also tenants at will. He had, therefore, bring to bear upon the recusants? Had the power of removing them, and of course not the Government said, that they found he had the power of obtaining the balance it almost impossible to recover the arrears due to him for tithe, whilst others had not of the million, and if they could not, how that power. But what was the condition could the landlords recover them, surof other landlords? A noble Earl in another place (Earl Roden), had given a hostile peasantry? rounded as they were by an excited and description of the condition of a Pro- begged pardon for using so strong a It was untrue-he testant gentleman, one of the olden time, phrase-it was a mistake to say, that he with an income nominally of 5,000l. a- had not paid his tithes. He had paid a year, who, however, never got more than large portion on the simple application of 7001. a-year for his support. The Earl of the clergyman to him, and he had in his Roden had declared, that many men of possession a letter from a clergyman in this class would be crushed by the opera- which he returned him (Mr. Sheil) his tion of the poor-law. would crush such men, how much more order that he might discharge it. If the poor-law thanks for asking him for his account in would the compelling them to pay tithes was, in fact, willing to pay every farthing which they had not obtained, crush them? of tithes incurred by himself, but he obSuppose land to be let at 20s. the acre,jected to be made responsible for those of and supposing, and he spoke from expe- his tenants who refused to pay him. rience, that the tithe was 3s., the tenant enough about himself-enough of indipaid 17s. to the landlord, but refused to vidual cases. pay the tithes, and the landlord, who had upon the House was this-if they were What he wished to impress to pay the 3s. to the clergyman, would to have the balance of the million apin fact receive only 14s. the acre for his plied to the extinction of the arrears, let land. This was a statement of facts, them not confine it to the occupying teand every Gentleman who belonged to nant, but grant a portion of it to the that part of Ireland (Tipperary) could cor- landlords who were in the predicament to roborate this statement. There were three which he had alluded. classes of persons whom the House ought to consider. There was the landlord, who received his tithes; there was the proprietor of the fee-simple in possession of the fee-simple. Let them pay their tithes; it was but fair, because they received it; but the landlords who, in point of law were liable, who de jure were liable, but who de facto had not received their tithes, were entitled to the indulgence of the House. Let them remember

He

But

people of England were about to be deMr. Hume said, that in his opinion the frauded of a large sum in order to support an Establishment which ought to have been reduced long ago, but, at the same time, Ireland and England were in such a situation that every friend of peace must desire to see an end put to agitation. Did the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, mean to say, that the sacrifice of 307,000l. would restore peace to Ire

land? He begged to remind the House [ count of his being a partisan; but had of what had passed a few days ago. His complained of her Majesty's governopinion was, that for a while the money ment that they had promoted parties might put down agitation, but in a short who had been engaged not only in the time agitation would arise again. In his violation of the law themselves, but in enopinion, the interests of England were couraging others to violate it. The hon. about to be betrayed. He saw no reason and learned Member fell under this dewhy they should remit arrears of tithe to scription, for he surely could not forget the amount of 640,000l., with the addi- the speeches which he had made in Tiptional sum of 307,000l., unless upon the perary and elsewhere invoking resistance to conditions which were pointed out on the the claims of the Church, and calling for Ministerial side of the House, when they its entire abolition. It had been declared succeeded in 1835 in ousting the Govern- by the hon. and learned Member for Dubment. Let the Church be reduced, let the lin that Ireland never was in such a state reforms that were then pointed out be of imminent danger as at the present moadopted, and let the surplus arising, after ment-that she was like a charged the purposes of the Church should have volcano ready to burst forth at any moment. been provided for, be applied to the re- And was this the state to which Ireland payment of the million, and he should be was reduced in spite of all the kind and willing to consent to it, but beyond that healing measures, all the popular proceedhe did not think, that the House of Com-ings, of the new Government of that mons ought to go, and he doubted much whether the people of England would sanction the giving up of a million of money to the landlords of Ireland. The Church of Ireland was rotten at the core -it was an incubus, which ought not and could not maintain its existence in spite of the feelings of the people. He could promise the right. hon. Baronet opposite, that all his expectations of peace would be disappointed unless he agreed to the appropriation clause and the abolition of sinecures in the Church. Until this was done he would never agree to give one shilling of public money to the clergy of Ireland.

Mr. Sergeant Jackson said, that there was not a more laborious and conscientious body of men than the clergy of Ireland. He denied, also, that they were overpaid; their incomes did not average more than 2501. a year. He took the liberty of saying a few words in explanation of what appeared to him to be the meaning of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, in reference to the hon. and learned Member for Tipperary. In touching upon this point he must frankly bear testimony to the gentlemanly deportment which invariably distinguished the part which the hon. and learned Gentleman took in their discussions. The hon. and learned Gentleman never allowed his political feelings to carry him out of the strict line of straightforward and gentlemanly dealing. As the observation struck him, however, the right hon. Baronet had not objected to the hon. and learned Member for Tipperary, on ac

country? He feared, indeed, that the hon. and learned Member for Dublin spoke truly, when he said, that Ireland was in a bad state. But why was it so? It was because the Government had not taken the proper and obvious means to enforce obedience and respect to the law; on the contrary, they had not only winked at repeated violations of it, but had actually from time to time promoted the very men who had been guilty of them. He knew of two parties who had been foremost in resisting the law in the matter of tithes, and who had subsequently been promoted to offices in the Exchequer Court. He could assure the House, that in consequence of such proceedings as these it was a received opinion in Ireland that the Government of the country was merging into the hands of the hon. and learned member for Dublin, that at his bidding the magistracy was cleared out, and the police made use of, not as the legitimate means of protecting the peace of the country, but as a ready source of patronage in the hands of the hon. and learned Gentleman.

must say, that, considering the time which | lutions passed at the public meetings held had elapsed since the advances had been in Ireland-whether the Church of Iremade, and that these advances were made land should remain in existence at all, or on account of tithes due as far back as the whether its revenues should not be approyear 1831, he did not think, that it would priated to other and far different purposes. be either reasonable or expedient to insist Therefore, when the hon. Gentleman called in future upon the payment of the instal- for a sum of money in order to procure a ments. To do so would not only embarrass settlement of this question, he, at the same the clergy but inflict a hardship upon the time, told them, that it would not lead to a settlement at all; but, on the contrary, occupiers. The hon. Member had made a proposition to which so much opposition that the money would be given to those had been shown, that he (Lord J. Russell) who had already violated the law, and were determined still to violate it. If, thought it better to go back to the proposition which had been made by Go- under these circumstances, the House vernment, and introduce a clause for the were to acquiesce in such a grant, they total remission of the instalments due, would not have the consolation that they whether from the occupiers or from those were making such a sacrifice with a likeliBut the hood of ensuring the future peace of the who held for the tithe owners. He came now to a third quesquestion was very different with regard to country. the arrears since incurred. He quite con- tion for consideration, namely, whether curred in the opinion, that if by the ad- such a grant would tend to the future vance of a small sum of money, it was good working of the present bill. In this likely they would put a satisfactory ter-point of view, as well as in the two which mination to this very harassing question, he had just stated, he did not consider it it might be well to pay the money. But expedient to adopt this proposition. The the question even then became one of hon. and learned Member for Tipperary amount. On this point, the right hon. had stated, with great appearance of reaBaronet, the Member for Tamworth, son, that considerable hardship was sufseemed to consider, that the remainder of fered by landlords who became subject to the million advanced in 1835, would not payments on account of tithes, which they were unable to recover from their tenants. be sufficient; that is, if they were now to give up the remainder of the million, and But that was exactly the hardship which forgive the arrears due on account of the would still be liable to occur under the bill 640,000l. already paid, the present diffi- which they now proposed to pass; and he culties of the case would not be met. Nor believed, that if the proposed advance had he yet heard from any hon. Member, were agreed to, the landlord would have any definite sum proposed which was suf- to pay the 75 per cent. under this clause, ficient for the object in view. The only which he could not, for some considerable statement which he recollected to have time, be able to recover from his tenant. heard made tending to this point, was by But he thought, that the landlord should the hon. Member for Tipperary, who look to his tenant for the future for the stated the arrears due upon tithes to be reimbursement of the rent-charge which Some amicaabout two millions sterling. Under these he was called upon to pay. circumstances, and with no better inform- ble arrangement might eventually be exation on the subject, he owned, that on pected between landlords and tenants being called upon for an advance of which would prevent the former from money, he did not feel disposed to ac-being losers in the end. But if the House were to say, wherever payment has not quiesce in it. Supposing, that the arrears due were two millions, then, if only 75 been made, we will advance a further sum per cent. were paid, a million and a-half in order to meet it, this would be a direct of money would be required. But even inducement to landlords to say, "We will supposing they were to make such an ad- not harass our tenants for the payments, vance of public money, would it, in the because their not paying them will be a opinion of the House, lead to a final set- sufficient ground for us to make out a tlement of the question respecting the case of hardship which will ensure us the Church of Ireland? On the contrary, payment of any sums required for the the hon. and learned Member for Dublin purpose." On all these grounds, he asserted, that the question now was, and thought, that it would not be advisable to he was supported in this view by the reso- make any further advance from the state

towards the settlement of this question. At the same time, however, he thought it would be hard to call on the landlords for the payment of arrears already due. He should, therefore, advise the entire remission of the 640,000l. already advanced; but should oppose the proposition of the

hon. and learned Member for Dublin.

under the present Bill, to recur to the occupiers of the land. Surely, if the rent-charge was a security for the clergy, it would be equally so for the Government. One observation had fallen from the noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, which had not been characterised by his usual sagacity, namely, that the collection of rent had been benefited by the non-payment of the tithe. This was not the case; for though there had been an improved payment of rent, it arose out of the improved condition of the country and the increased communication between England and Ireland.

Sir R. Peel: The importance of the subject is my only excuse for trespassing again on the indulgence of the House. I do not despair, that some settlement of this question, consistent with justice, may be arrived at; and I beg to submit to the consideration of the Committee, a proposal offered with that view, and the main grounds of which I shall now state. In the first place, as you can do nothing without a commission, let one be appointed. It is impossible, unless you mean to act blindly, that you should proceed in this case without intrusting to some such body the necessary powers for carrying the plau, which I mean to submit, into operation. Do not guarantee to pay the amount of the arrears, but place at the disposal of this commission 307,000, I should rather say half a million. Ascertain, then, the total amount of the arrears of the occupying tenants, and determine what proportion the defined sum which you place at the disposal of the commission, bears to the whole amount of the arrears. Supposing the sum fixed upon for disposal by the commission to be 307,000l., and the whole amount of ar

Mr. Lucas had never heard a discussion with more pleasure, and he had no doubt that the debate of the three last hours would do more to the settlement of the Irish tithe question than all parties had been able to effect in the last four years. He hoped there was very little difference between the two parties composing the House on this question; at least, it appeared to him clear, that no hon. Gentleman desired to recur to the clergyman for the collection of the money advanced to him. His belief was, they would not be able to recur to that petty warfare between the clergy and the occupier. It would be utterly impossible for any government to carry out any bill with such a blot in it as a proposition for recurring to the occupiers of the soil for the recovery of tithes. If a recurrence were had to the occupiers of Ireland, the great difficulty would be with respect to a final adjustment of this measure. The noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire had said, that it was the duty of the State, for the purpose of procuring peace by an adjustment of this question, to make some concession; that the clergy should, on their part, make some sacrifice, and that a sacrifice should also be made by the landlords. In this opinion he fully concurred, and as far as he was acquainted with the clergy and landlords of Ireland, he was sure they would be satisfied with any reasonable arrangement which held out a prospect of a successful and satis-rears to be 640,000l., of course you can factory adjustment of the question. The hon. and learned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin, had not, in the observations which he had addressed to the House, stated any definite plan. As a sacrifice had been mentioned, he would venture to assert, that there would be no sacrificethere would be no absolute loss incurred. It was merely a loan, and the thing was, to take care that there should be sufficient security for its repayment. The question of difficulty was not so much as to whether the amount should be moderate or otherwise, but as to the chance of recovering, and whether it was necessary,

only meet fifty per cent. of what is now due. Then introduce an optional principle into the plan-offer to purchase the arrears by a tender of fifty per cent, the Government standing in the position of the tithe-owner in respect to the arrears. Give the parties two months, or a certain definite period, to decide. In my opinion, a great number will be found ready to sink their right to arrears in consideration of the immediate payment of the sum which you offer. The State will then be in possession of the existing right of the tithe-owner to the arrears. You will thus be enabled to look at the particular cir

cumstances of each place, and to see proposal might form an admirable basis where it is right to enforce the law, and for arrangement. When on a former ocwhere it would be more expedient to avoid casion, the million was advanced, it was its enforcement. Let you, the State, be found, that 640,000l. sufficed; which the party to enforce to the utmost the proved, that the arrears had been greatly claim of the tithe-owner, and to make exaggerated, and he believed, that to be He entertained a sincere such arrangements as that you can say the case now. to the landlord-"There are 1001. of ar- hope, that the 307,000l. would be enough rears due to me by your tenants; let a to defray them; and he was happy to see portion of this be paid, and we shall remit the feeling which seemed to pervade the the remainder." This plan would do no House for an amicable settlement of the injustice to the clergyman, because he is question; with the exception, indeed, of to remain in possession of his remedy for a little anger on the part of the learned the recovery of his tithe, in case he re- Sergeant, the Member for Bandon (Mr. fuses the offer made him by the commis- Sergeant Jackson). In cases where the sion. I venture to say in nine cases out landlord had received tithes from the of ten he will accept your offer. In the tenantry and not paid to the clergy, unfew cases in which he shall decline, there doubtedly, punishment and not encourageBut he believed remains the objection, that the tithe ar- ment, should follow. He had never rears are to be recovered by the clergyman such cases to be very rare. from the occupying tenant; but how in- heard of one. It had been rightly said finitely smaller will that proportion be of him (Mr. O'Connell) that he did not than when you leave the clergyman alto-expect this measure would settle the quesgether to the enforcement of his own rights, without any interference on the part of the Government. this course you introduce an optional principle; you place yourselves in the position of the clergyman; where the circumstances of the opposition given by the occupying tenant are such, that you do not think it right to enforce the claim to arrears, you can abstain from doing so; but where, on the contrary, the tenant is solvent and refractory, and you seek to make a public example of en-nation to that force in any instance. With forcing the law, then you have the means of compelling payment. But, above all, do not bring into collision the clergy and the occupying tenants. Do not levy for arrears extending over an indefinite period. Some allowance should be made for bad debts and other circumstances, and, therefore, I think you should limit the arrears to those which have occurred within two See what an advance we have made by this preliminary discussion. All have agreed, that the sum of 640,000l. must be remitted, and I cannot help thinking, that if we address ourselves with earnestness to the remainder of the question, we shall be enabled to devise some plan by which the offer of a defined sum may be combined with an optional principle as to the enforcement of claims for

years.

tion of tithes as regarded time to come. He should have acted with great injustice insincerity, and criminality if he had said any such thing, for he did not feel it. He had no objection, however, to give the measure every chance of success; but though, for his own part, he had no hope of it, he would aid them in the trial. The hon. Member for Bandon had alluded to him, and said, that the police force were under his control. So far from that being the case he had not made a single nomi

regard to the spread of Ribbonism in Ireland, it was completely strangled. It did exist to a considerable extent in the vicinity of Dublin, but had been suppressed more by the exertions of the new police force than anything else. He now came again to the spirit in which this discussion had taken place, and he hoped, that enough had been done to induce the Government to pause and consider whether they might not adopt some plan for getting rid of the arrears, for if they attempted to enforce them they would do anything but conciliate. He trusted they would consider the proposals thrown out on both sides. It might be a sacrifice to be made by England, but it was an arrangement which would tend to a salutary result, and he trusted the House would consider it fully in committee.

Lord Stanley begged to say a word with respect to the amount to be required. He understood his right hon. Friend did