for this clause, he must confess one change of opinion which he had undergone. Formerly he was opposed, now he was friendly, to the voluntary principle. He would tell the House why he had become this convert. It was, because he had seen, of late years, with the deepest regret, the vexatious, and oppressive, and persecuting conduct of the clergy of the Church of England towards those who differed from them in religious opinion. He repeated the phrase, which seemed so obnoxious to hon. Gentlemen opposite. He was now a voluntary on principle, and what was more, from experience of the opposite principle. There was a species of property in this country, which was generally called Church property. For his own part, he called it public property; and he thought, that it ought to be distributed equally and fairly for the religious instruction of men of all classes, sects, and denominations. He was quite aware, that he could not carry out that principle at present. But the time would yet come-and the hon. Gentlemen opposite knew it-the time would yet come--[Great cheering from both sides of the House.] Mr. Bernal (the Chairman) interrupted the hon. Member for Kilkenny, who was entering into subjects not at all connected with the question under debate. Mr. Hume was sent there by his constituents to speak the honest sentiments of his heart, and speak them he would, at every hazard. Personally, he was obliged to the hon. Chairman for his caution, but he was sent there to speak the truth by his constituents, and speak it he would, however obnoxious it might be to the clergy or their supporters. In reply to what had been said by hon. Gentlemen opposite, he would repeat, that the principle which he had laid down, was the only true voluntary principle. The House had cheered, as if they considered his proposition to be clearly monstrous and impracticable; but he had lived for some time in the world, and he had seen other things, deemed equally strange and unlikely to happen, come nevertheless to pass; and he was convinced, old as he was, that he should live to see a great alteration indeed take place in the holding of what was called Church property. If the hon. Gentlemen opposite, acting as they called it in support of the Church, persisted in their old course of oppression and monopoly, he was certain that they would drive public VOL. XLIV. Third Series (6 to opinion to many acts which it had never yet contemplated. He had heard, from the other side, a great deal about “toleration, toleration." For his own part, leration" was a word that he spurned-it was unworthy a free people; what he asked for, and he would be content with nothing less, was equal rights for all classes, sects, and denominations of her Majesty's subjects. Lord Stanley admitted, that this was a question on which it could not be said that there was no difficulty in coming to a decision. If there were in that House, as he supposed there were, many hon. Gentlemen who might have hesitated as to the vote which they ought to give on this motion, he was quite sure, that if they had attached any importance to the observations of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, those observations would have had a tendency to divert them from the support of the proposition which that hon. Member had advocated. He looked, however, to this question, not with reference to the observations of the hon. Memberthey scarcely deserved notice-but with reference to its substantial justice and policy. If he thought, that in giving the proposition of support he was doing anything which could place the sects which differed from the Church of England on an equality with her, or if he thought that in supporting that proposition he was placing any, even the smallest, stigma on the Church of England, as a national establishment, no consideration in the world would induce him to support it. But the situation of these unfortunate prisoners was a peculiar situation. They were pa ced in a position in which they were separated from the spiritual control of those to whom they were accustomed to look up for support and consolation, and to which they would have resorted for advice had they been free. In supporting the proposition of the hon. Member opposite, the committee was not called upon to establish any new principle; for hon. Gentlemen admitted, that in Ireland, and he heard no objection to that principle, it was not only expedient, but also just and necessary, that there should be a Roman Catholic chaplain in every gaol. Were hon. Gentlemen, then, adopting a mischievous innovation when they proposed to introduce it into England in all gaols, where, on an average of a certain number of years, there were such a number of Roman Ca H his religious belief. The House should at least consent to the free admission of the priest, even to an individual prisoner. The present regulations were tantamount to his exclusion. Sir R. Peel thought it was rather upfortunate that it had not been more distinctly understood that this subject would have been brought under their consideration that day. After the conflicting opinions, too, which they had beard delivered, he thought it would be better if the hon. Gentleman, without making any concessions to the principle, would consent to tholics confined as required the undivided attention of a clergyman of their own persuasion? In the very bill then before the House they had already declared that fifty prisoners were enough for a chaplain of the Established Church to attend to; and that if there were more than that number the chaplain should be entitled to an increased salary. How, then, could they reconcile themselves to refram from giving spiritual instruction according to their mode of belief to fifty Dissenters whom they might find in their gaols? First of all, could they compel the Roman Catholics to attend to the in-withdraw the clause upon the understandstruction of a clergyman in whose doctrine ing that he would bring it forward upon they did not believe; and secondly, if they the third reading of the bill. The noble did not try the compulsory course, could Lord the Secretary of State, who had they ask them to deprive themselves, or access to every information on the subwould it be right to deprive them, of all¦ject, had been present during a very short religious instruction whatever? Upon the fullest consideration which he had been able to give to this proposition, he was inclined to vote in favour of it. He could not voluntarily lose the opportunity of reclaiming so large a portion of our vicious population, so long as he saw there was the slightest chance of reclaiming them. He, however, thought this clause should be permissive, not compulsory, and he would suggest to the hon. Member who had proposed it whether it would not be better to insert in the enactive parts of it these words "if they shall so think fit." period of the discussion, not expecting, perhaps, that so important a subject would have been brought under consideration. Without, therefore, expressing any decided opinion at present, he thought it would be better to reserve it for more serious and deliberate consideration. Even supposing that he entirely coincided in the principle of the hon. Gentleman's clause, be wished to show him that, as it stood at present, it would not answer his purpose. He would first ask him if he meant, that it should be imperative upon the magistrates to appoint chaplains? The words were "that it shall be lawful," &c. Now, according to the construction of some, those words meant that it should be imperative on the Mr. Estcourt. This was the introduc- magistrates, while others contended that tion of a new principle into the law of they conferred a discretionary power. It Eugland, which, if once admitted, might was very important that the hon. Gentlebe attended with the very greatest incon-man should determine that point. The venience to the interests of the Established Mr. Langdale was anxious to do every thing in his power to meet the wishes of the noble Lord. Church, hon. Gentleman also made the appointment of chaplains determinable by the cirMr. Sheil conceived, that the opinion of cumstance of there having been on the the hon, Gentlemen opposite was, that this three previous years an average of fifty proposition ought to be granted, provided prisoners. Now, if during one year there that the power of appointing these chap-happened to be sixty prisoners in the gaol, Jains were accompanied with proper checks, A proposition exactly the same with the present was carried for Inland when Lord Liverpool was at the head of the Government, when Sir R. Peel was at the head of the Home Department, and when Mr, Goulburn was Secretary to the Loid-lieutenant for Ireland. When the Catholic was out of prison he could go to the priest, but when he was in prison the priest must go to him, else he would be deprived of all opportunity of acting in conformity with not Members of the establishment, but professing one faith, he might be disposed to contend for the necessity of providing them with a chaplain. But according to the clause of the hon. Member, if that year happened to be one of the three preceding years, and that upon those three years there was not an average of fifty, there would have been no power to provide a chaplain for the single year during which there were sixty prisoners. It did not depend, therefore, on the number of prisoners requiring religious aid at the time, saying, "He is not the chaplain I wish hon. Gentleman, combined with such regulations as should make it perfectly safe. Mr. Thornely read an extract from a report which he said he had received from one of the inspectors of prisons, to the following effect:-of the religious professions of 419 persons confined in the borough gaol of Liverpool in August, 1837, there were 216 Protestants, 174 Roman Catholics, 17 Presbyterians, and the rest of other persuasions. He understood, that in Manchester the Roman Catholics bore at least as great a proportion to the whole population as in Liverpool. He could not, therefore, for a moment hesitate to say, that whenever the hon. Member for Knaresborough brought forward, in any shape, a proposition for giving to those 174 Roman Catholics in the gaol of Liverpool, and to the Catholics similarly placed throughout the country, the advantage of religious consolation from their own ministers, he should have great pleasure in voting with him. Lord J. Russell agreed with the right hon. Baronet, that they should not agree to a clause of that nature without its having been brought in a distinct shape the other House, which had passed, and the Government, which had sanctioned it. He was only induced to consent to the passing of the bill from the conviction that an efficient change would be brought about sooner if this measure were adopted, than if the law were allowed to remain in its present state. The Attorney-general resisted the amendment, as making a very important alteration in the system that now prevailed. That part of the system to which it related, if altered at all, ought to be wholly re-modelled. HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, July 16, 1838. pline; Qualification of Electors; Sheriffs Courts.-Read a first time :-Royal Exchange; Prisons (Scotland). Petitions presented. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Legal Practitioners in the county of Elgin, in favour of the Sheriffs Courts (Scotland) Bill.-By Lord SONDES, from the Operative Conservative Association of Warrington, for the expulsion of Roman Catholics from Parliament.-By the Earl of CARLISLE, from the Church Missionary Society of Carlisle, against Idolatry in India; and from the town of Carlisle, in favour of the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill.-By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Individuals connected with the Corporation of Cork, not to pass the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill without compensating those affected by it.-By the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from the neighbourhood of Liverpool, and from Alverstoke, against any further Grant of Money to the College of Maynooth. Mr. Harvey said, it almost seemed from the tone taken by the Attorney-general as if that House had little to do with the bill in the way of deliberation, and must be content to take it as it stood, or not at all. For his part, he confessed, he was not so unfavourable to the bill as the hon. Member for Bridport. It was obviously not a perfect measure; but it made several most important improvements on the present law. If the bill should pass, APPOINTMENT OF MR. TURTON.] The the fraudulent debtor would no longer Earl of Winchilsea was sorry, that he was have it in his power to set his creditors not present the other evening, when a at defiance, and live in a state of criminal noble Friend of his (Lord Wharncliffe) affluence within the walls of a prison, but asked a question of the noble Viscount, would be brought before a competent which appeared to him to be of great court, and compelled to surrender whatimportance. So far as it went, the answer ever property he possessed. On the other hand, the creditor would not be allowed, given to that question, which related to a recent appointment in Canada, was satisas at present, to keep the debtor in pri- factory. But, had he been in his place when son for an interminable period, in the in- the noble Viscount expressed his regret at dulgence of a spirit of censurable vindic-the appointment, he should not have been tiveness. They were not now, in his opinion, in a condition to discuss the whole law of debtor and creditor, and therefore, although he thought that many useful improvements might be made in it, he was disposed to acquiesce in this bill. The Attorney-general was only anxious not to hazard, by too many amendments, at this late period of the Session, the passing of a measure which all must look upon as extremely beneficial. entirely satisfied, without inquiring what course the Government meant to adopt on the subject. When he had formerly sought information as to this appointment, he entertained no doubt that the individual alluded to had gone out with a view to his becoming a member of one of the highest and most important missions that had ever been sent from this country; and he objected to any such appointment, because he viewed it as being closely connected Mr. Hume wished, that insolvents should with the character of the Sovereign. In be put on the same footing as bankrupts. his opinion, no one should have been emIt was very hard to allow a judgment to ployed on such a mission, except his chahang over an insolvent which would pre-racter was free from taint or blemish. He vent him from ever re-establishing him- now begged leave to ask the noble Visself in business. count a question, namely, whether the Mr. Freshfield objected to the amend-individual to whom he alluded had been ment, as causing an inconvenient alter- recalled? That was the only question that ation in the existing law. In the Insol- he meant to ask. He had heard it reported, vent Debtors' Court, there were at the but he trusted the rumour was without present moment between 100,000 and foundation, that the appointment had not |