Please direct your letter as soon as possible, with the amount and names, no matter how trifling the respective and corresponding Subscriptions, to any of the Gentlemen of the following Com mittee:-The Hon. Gonville French, Sylvester Young, Esq., Richard O'Gorman, Esq., Richard Coyne, Esq., John D'Arcy, Esq., George Brennan, Esq, or Robert N. Fynn, Esq., Secretary. I am, Rev. Dear Sir, your obedient humble servant, R. N. FYNN, Secretary.

Committee Room, 4 Capel-street, Dublin.

N. B.-All letters to be addressed to No. 4, Capel-street.

The result of the above appeal was to realise-not including certain sums yet outstanding-the sum of £1736 6s. 8d. deducting the expenses attendant on Advertisements, &c. &c., which were considerable.

The Publisher feels it necessary to observe, that the first five days' discussion were duly authenticated by the Reporters on both sides; but a difference having arisen between the Principals, the remaining days were printed separately by their respective Publishers, and authenticated only by their own Reporter.

4th January, 1839

FIRST DAY-TUESDAY, 29th MAY, 1838,

ELEVEN O'CLOCK, A. M.

THE REV. THOMAS MAGUIRE-Gentlemen, I call upon my friend, the Rev. Mr. Gregg, for his proofs that the United Protestant Church of England and Ireland is the Church of Christ, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Mr. GREGG-In these kingdoms.

Mr. MAGUIRE-In these kingdoms.

Mr. GREGG-Gentlemen, I beg leave, first of all, to take a preliminary step, and that is, to move that my friend, the Rev. Edward Nangle, Missionary in the Island of Achill, do take the chair at this meeting on my part.

Mr. MAGUIRE-Agreed.

Mr. MAGUIRE-And I appoint the Rev. Justin M'Namara, P. P. of Kinsale, as my Chairman on this occasion.

Mr. GREGG-Agreed.

to

proper Mr. GREGG-Gentlemen, there is another preliminary step which it is take before we proceed to the business in hand, and that is, that either of the Rev. Chairmen should read the published propositions agreed to on my part, and likewise to read the regulations under which this meeting has assembled, and which govern those who take a part in it, if Mr. Maguire have no objection.

Mr. MAGUIRE-Not the slightest.

Mr. GREGG here called on the Rev. Mr. Nangle to read the proposition. "Ist-I assert that the united Church of England and Ireland is the true Church of Christ, holy, catholic, and apostolic, in these kingdoms-that it knows the true road to heaven, points it out to its followers, and that its blessed fruits are the holiness and happiness of those with whom it prevails. "2ndly-I assert that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of Antichrist, unholy and apostate-that it does not know, and does not teach, the way to heaven-that it conducts its followers in the broad road which leadeth to destruction-that it brings down the curse of God upon every country where it prevails-that it is the mother of abominations-the plague and the pest of the human race-that it will be destroyed by the signal vengeance of the Most High, and that the very first duty of every member of it is instantly to come out of it, that he be not a partaker at once of its sins and of its plagues."

Mr. NANGLE-I undertake, on the part of Mr. Gregg, to assert that he will prove those two propositions.

Mr. MACNAMARA-On the part of Mr. Maguire, I assert that he will disprove them. Mr. GREGG-Would it not be well that Mr. Maguire's answer be read for the satisfaction of the meeting?

Mr. MAGUIRE-I have no objection.

Mr. MACNAMARA read the following letter from Mr. Maguire to Mr. Gregg:"4, Capel-street, April 7.

REV. SIR-Your letter of last night has relieved me from all perplexity, removed all my anxiety, and given me unexampled satisfaction. The die is cast. There is no retreating now; and I am charmed at the prospect of a public opportunity of exhibiting to the full gaze of mankind, the Veiled Prophets' of a proud, worldly, luxuriating Establishment. The comparative claims of the two great rival Churches to unity, sanctity, catholicity, and apostolicity, are now in a promising way of being fairly, fully, equally, and searchingly discussed. Your two propositions are already before the public. These you undertake to prove, and I to disprore. Thus do I consent to meet you amicably upon My friend, Mr. Coyne, and I, shall meet you and your friend, between the hours of one and two o'clock, P., on Monday next, at 4. Capel-street, to appoint time and place, and settle the whole routine of our friendly and Christian-like discussion. I cannot conclude this letter, without congratulating you on your manly candour throughout the whole of our meetings and correspondence; and I trust you have no reason to be dissatisfied with me or mine.

your own terms.

"I am, Rev. Sir, your obedient humble servant,

Rev. T. D. Gregg

T. MAGUIRE."

And then he read the following arrangements for conducting the Discussion :— That the discussion be held in the round room of the Rotunda, if obtainable, or in any equally sapacious and convenient room.

1*

"That the discussion shall commence on the last Tuesday in May, and continue on that and the following days, at eleven o'clock, A. M., each day, and continue till two o'clock, but may be continued till three o'clock, if both the principals agree; each speaker to continue his address for thirty minutes. "That two chairmen be chosen by the principals, on or before the first day of the discussion. "That the principals be plaintiff and defendant on alternate days; Mr. Gregg to be plaintiff first day, Mr. Maguire plaintiff second day, and so on.

The discussion to continue until the chairmen agree that it shall terminate.

"That at least on one day females to be excluded.

64

That the expense of the discussion be borne by tickets, and the surplus be given to the principals on each side, for purposes of charity.

The price of the tickets to be hereafter decided.

That the meeting be open to the press, and a special reporter for each party be employed, who shall be responsible for the accuracy of the reports that shall be made of the speeches, and of the entire business of the discussion.

Two door-keepers to be provided-one Roman Catholic and one Protestant.

That no indications be admitted of approbation or disapprobation during the discussion.

The discussion to be published, being previously authenticated by the principals themselves; that any profits derivable to the principals from the publication, be equally divided between them for such purposes as the surplus money from the tickets.

Mr. GREGG—I beg to trouble Mr. Maguire with another question,-on what day would it be convenient to carry the third condition into effect, namely, the exclusion of the ladies?

Mr. MAGUIRE-Any day you please; say Friday or Saturday.

Mr. GREGG-As Mr. Maguire has left it to my option, I will say Saturday for the exclusion of the ladies; that, therefore, is to be understood as agreed.

Mr. MAGUIRE-Very well.

Mr. GREGG-Having settled these preliminary regulations, which I thought it necessary to do in the first place, I would beg most unaffectedly to say that I feel sincere pleasure at the conduct pursued all through by the Rev. Mr. Maguire; and that, if he have no objection that I should be allowed with my friends, I am sure it would be agreeable to all those who think with me, to supplicate a blessing on the results of this discussion.

Mr. MAGUIRE seemed to consent, but it appears he did not understand Mr. G. Mr. GREGG-Let us pray

Mr. MAGUIRE-In my opinion, as there are many persons present of different religious communions, perhaps it would be better if each person made a secret prayer in his heart to God, without at the same time throwing in any little flambeau of difference which may exist between us, and which has unfortunately, God knows, cccurred already too often.

Mr. GREGG Then I can only shortly pray. May the Lord in his mercy bless our meeting to the spiritual good and everlasting benefit of every individual present! Mr. MAGUIRE-And may the great and eternal God, whose unity and trinity we are about to maintain, assist and help us all, but most especially the man who has truth on his side!

The Rev. Mr. GREGG then commenced.- Gentlemen, I should consider that I were very improperly trifling with the meeting, if I delayed for a moment to dwell upon circumstances, so far as they have reference to myself or my opponent personally-I mean the challenge, and the various correspondence growing out of it, which led to this meeting. I am quite sure that neither of the combatants is respected in the matter. It is not with Mr. Maguire, or Mr. Gregg, that the company before me feels it is occupied. I am sure the great subject of consideration with every one of us, is the principles which we maintain, and your earnest desire is to hear those principles asserted, without any allusion to ourselves as very unimportant characters. I likewise think it unnecessary to dwell upon what I conceive likely to be the results of this discussion. I have formed my own conclusion of what these

results are likely to be; and I shall only say, that feeling myself in the line of duty, standing before you as I do, I feel a great degree of freedom from anxiety with respect to the results. Duty is ours-consequences are God's. I shall state to you, in the first place, that I do not stand before you as the representative of any body; I stand simply before you upon my own responsibility, to maintain my opinions as contra-distinguished to the opinions of the Rev. Gentleman who is my opponent; and yet I would not have you think, while I disclaim standing here as a responsible representative, that I desire to view myself as standing alone. In fact, I consider myself, first, as standing upon my own responsibility with respect to representation; but I do not consider myself as standing alone in reference to my opinions. I stand before you not as an isolated individual maintaining what he considers his private opinions merely, but as a member of the holy Catholic Church established among us, to bring forward what I consider to be the mind of that Church. There is no one who has a more hesitating feeling of the soundness, perhaps, of his merely private opinions; I can assure you that I am not one of those who choose to take up private opinions. My object has been to discover the mind of our holy Church, to see that that mind is consistent with the holy Word of God, to be assured that I am taught the truths of that Church by that Word-and to assure myself likewise, that I am instructed in these truths by the Holy Spirit: so that I stand before you, not to represent my brethren in the ministry, nevertheless as giving to you my ideas of what are the opinions and doctrines entertained in our Church, but open to correction by my brethren, in case I should state opinions or doctrines that may be at variance with the principles of the Church. Gentlemen, the two propositions before us are-first, a proposition upon my part, that the Church of England is the holy Catholic Church in these kingdoms; and the second proposition is, that the Roman Catholic Church is an apostate Church. Now, I would desire to impress upon your minds that there is an intimate connection between the two propositions; for, in fact, our Church was a branch of the Roman Catholic Church. We have laid aside those doctrines in that Church which we consider to indicate the apostasy. We have laid aside those practices which grew out of those corrupt doctrines in that church; and we are simply the reformed old Catholic Church of Ireland Hence there is an intimate union between the two propositions; for, if the Church of Rome were holy and pure-if she were in doctrine and practice unexceptionable, we should be, by our separation, schismatical, apostate, and injurious; and hence you perceive my demonstrating the apostasy and corruption of the Church of Rome is essential to the establishment of my first proposition-namely, the holiness and excellence of our Irish Catholic Church. Now I desire, in the first place, to set matters clear as to the use of an expression in my letter, which has, I think, been very generally misunderstood, and that is, the use of the definite article before the words "true church." I asserted that the United Church of England and Ireland is the true Church of Christ, holy, catholic, and apostolic, in these kingdoms. It is said that I should have asserted it is a holy Catholic Church; but I disapprove of this mode of expression, because it runs counter to one of the articles in our creed, where we say, we believe one holy, catholic, and apostolic church ;" and therefore, if I said that our Church is a holy Catholic Church, it might be countenancing the idea (although I grant you, it may be explained) that the church was not one. Secondly, it is urged that I should have said "our Church is a branch of the true Church of Christ, holy, catholic, and apostolic, in these kingdoms." I grant you that that language would have been correct; but I say my language involves that, and that it is also correct; for when I say that our Church is the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church in these kingdoms, it necessarily implies that it is a branch of it; because I might, with truth, say, our Church is the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church in our village-not meaning that the whole Catholic Church was in our village, but that a branch of it was there. Hence the language I have used I consider strictly defensible and proper. Now, in order to maintain my proposition, I must go back in a great degree to first prin

66

ciples. Let us then consider what is the object of our Christianity. I shall state it briefly to you thus:-Our world is in a state of ruin by nature. We are all the children of fallen parents, and by the law of God we are condemned to destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power, totally unentitled to any, the least portion of Divine favor, in consequence of the apostasy of our first parents conveying to us original transgression, and in consequence of our own practical iniquity, the natural result of original sin. But it pleased God, in the exercise of his infinite mercy and free grace, to determine to reclaim our world from the guilt of sin-to redeem us from the curse, to put us in the way of escaping from the damnation of hell, and of obtaining the privileges and felicity of heaven. The world was completely sunk under the bondage of Satan, and God the Son, came down, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin to condemn sin in the flesh, to reclaim the whole world, so as to make righteousness cover the earth as the waters cover the great deep. It had been covenanted to him that he should obtain the heathen for his inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possessions; and that, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, his name should be glorified. In the accomplishment of this great and glorious work, our blessed Lord appeared upon earth, and commenced his work by establishing upon earth a small society taught and instructed in the maintenance of holy doctrines, and commanded to increase and multiply itself according to certain laws, and thus extend itself to every part of the world, and that it should at length cover the whole earth. Now this society is the Church; the law for increasing it by the addition of new members is the ordinance called baptism, by which, as through a door, new members are admitted into the Church; and the law whereby officers are appointed in the Church is called "orders." I think it will be found that my Rev. opponent fairly may agree in my view as to the nature of officers, so far as is essential. Now, established as a society under these laws, the Church in the beginning was pure and holy, and even in the lifetime of the blessed Apostles, it extended itself to such a degree-so far and wide into all the corners of the world-that St. Paul says, "Our sound has gone out into all lands, and our words to the end of the world" That society extended itself according to our histories, even in St. Paul's time, into Britain-some imagine by his instrumentality-others that it was caused by the instrumentality of Joseph of Arimathea; but that makes no great matter, for this is an uncertain tradition, and does not involve any of the essentials of our argument. This Church, then, extended itself, far and wide, even in the Apostles' time. But mark! I would desire to lead you to a very necessary distinction. Even in the very lifetime of Jesus Christ (to whom be glory for ever and ever) we have reason to believe there were divisions among his followers; for we find at one time his Apostles came and told him that they found certain persons casting out devils in his name," but who followed not with them, and they asked him that he should forbid them; whereupon he answered, "Forbid them not; no man can cast out devils in my name and lightly speak evil of me. He that is not against us, is on our part." This leads us to suppose that if they cast out devils in the name of Jesus, their doctrines must have been according to godliness, although they "followed not with them" (the Apostles.) Now that sort of a division is called a schism or split. Likewise schisms in the Church of Corinth have been frequently alluded to by the Apostle. Heresies also were alluded to in the Scriptures-for instance, the heresy of the Nicolaites; and there was likewise evidently a growing up of heresy in the Church of the Galatians, which should lead us to glorify our blessed God; for you perceive, my dear friends, how he has made the wrath of man to praise him; had not these heresies then existed, we should not have received those godly cautions contained in the Scriptures, which we derive therefrom, there sprung up along with the society of Jesus other small societies; they were called after the names of private individuals for instance, Paul or Apollos; then there were the Nicolaites, theCerynthians and Donatists, if indeed these can be considered heretics. Now, these