effect; namely, put an end to a system | conduct and character of these houses, or that led to immorality, and bade defiance indeed, as he had implied, that their object to all efforts to reform juvenile offenders. was merely to multiply them indefinitely? He had no personal interest in the mat- Why, the first proposition made was that no ter, but brought it forward at the request man should get a licence without the cerof others whose sole object was the promo- tificate of the magistrate as to his being a tion of morality, public decency, and order. fit person in point of character to receive MR. C. P. VILLIERS said, he should not it. Again, at this time any man might have risen to address the House but from go to the Excise and claim a beer-house the circumstance of his having acted as licence without his certificate of characChairman of the Committee which had ter on payment of £1 2s., while the probeen so much referred to. Having been posal of the Committee was that the so, however, he could not allow the hon. lowest payment should be £6, and should and learned Gentleman to represent the increase gradually in proportion to the Report of that Committee to this House in population. Then the hon. and learned a light not warranted by facts. The hon. Gentleman, very conveniently for his own Member seems to imagine that it had no measure, ignored altogether the evidence other view than to give effect to a theory, as to the working of the present licensing and the greater part of his speech has system, and its inefficiency in checking been devoted to battling with proposals the evils of which he complained, because that have not been made. Now, the object he had proposed a measure which, in diof the Committee had been to inquire rect opposition to that evidence, purported into the evils connected with the sale of to extend that system, and that without intoxicating liquors, which the hon. and venturing to dispute the accuracy of the learned Gentleman had brought before the evidence. If the hon. and learned GenHouse, and to inquire further whether the tleman had ever read the evidence he must present law which regulated the houses have observed that the two things which for the sale of liquor could not be amended were proved to be most objectionable, was with a view to the better protection of first, the sort of compulsory division of public morals, and the better accommo- the business of the publican into the sale dation of the public. The hon. and of beer only, and the sale of all other learned Gentleman, however, spoke as things in which a publican usually dealt; though the Committee had been utterly and secondly, the present licensing sysregardless of those considerations, as if tem, and yet he had adopted them both their only object had been to establish as the basis of his plan. The present what he is pleased to call free trade in system of separating the sale of spirits spirits, utterly reckless of the conse- from the sale of beer was found to be quences, which he professed to detail at most unsatisfactory, for it was almost much length, and upon that assumption impossible for a man to live by the sale has argued in favour of his own measure. of beer alone, and the evidence taken If the House did not adopt this most before the Committee showed that this erroneous view of the labours of that was the occasion in many cases of the Committee, he (Mr. Villiers) could not disreputable practices adopted in these conceive that they were likely to support houses of various irregular attractions being this Bill in the very face of the evidence resorted to to procure custom. The hon. collected by the Committee, and now in and learned Gentleman, however, proposed their possession; and, further, in disre- to perpetuate this artificial distinction ocgard of the assurance given by the Se-casioned by law between the two classes of cretary of State (Sir G. Grey) that the Government would take up the subject, and be ready to propose a measure in the course of next Session. The hon. and learned Gentleman had in view, he presumed, to raise the character of houses for the sale of intoxicating liquor, and, if possible, to impose limits on their number. But how could he attempt to lead the House to suppose that the Committee had been indifferent to these objects, and had taken no precaution whatever for the future

houses, and the only difference in his
scheme from the present would be that
the persons who were to sell beer alone
in future would get their licence from the
magistrates, which, as a system, had been
shown to work so ill in the case of the pub-
licans. The hon. and learned Gentleman
ought to have told the House how he in-
tended to meet the proved evils of the
licensing system, or to have told them
that the evidence was untrue.
He pro-
posed to extend the jurisdiction of the

brothels for forty-five years, and that the fact was known to the magistrates. Such was a sample of the evidence; and that evidence, though well known to have been given, was the next year wholly uncontradicted. For it was mainly on account of the startling evidence exposing the evils of the licensing system that he (Mr. Villiers) advised the Committee not to report in the first year of the inquiry, in order that this evidence should circulate through the country, and that if anything untrue had been stated that it might be contradicted, and that the Committee should only make its Report upon the truth. Now, he called upon the House to remember that the main point involved in the vote they were about to give was this, whether the licensing system, as it existed at present, should be extended or not. That is what the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed, not admitting himself, and expecting, he supposed, that the House would ignore altogether, the evils shown to exist in connection with the licensing system. The dif ficulty which was felt at present in dealing with this subject was the enormous value which had artificially been given to property by the licensing system. "Vested interests presented themselves in this matter; yet the hon. and learned Gentleman proposes to the House to increase these difficulties by his plan, which would, of course, work with respect to beerhouses precisely as it had done with the other houses. They must not forget, moreover, that the licence is usually considered as a favour conferred by the magistrates, and that if the beer-houses were to be licenced in the same way, it would greatly add to that kind of patronage. He (Mr. Villiers) did not say a word himself against the conduct of the magistrates. He only referred to the evidence which had been given, which was credible. IIe had no interest in the mat

magistrates in this respect, and he chose to ignore altogether the evidence of the uncertain and irregular manner in which the licences were now given. The hon. and learned Member said the Committee wished to attack the magistrates, and he seemed to think it enough for him generally to defend the magistracy as a body, as if they had been so attacked. Now, the fact was, that this part of the subject was purposely referred to with great carefulness and moderation in the Report, but the evidence teemed with statements made as to the manner in which these licences were granted, the system being shown to be of the most irregular and unsatisfactory kind. Nobody attacked the magistrates as a body. The Committee did not feel called upon to make any reflections on the magistracy, because they had good reason to believe that the great body of the magistrates were as little pleased as others with the ir regularities of the licensing system; that it was a task that usually devolved upon a few of their body only; and that generally speaking they would gladly be relieved of a duty which they deemed it difficult and odious to perform. It was, indeed, one which appertained rather to the police than to men having judicial functions, and it was felt by some that suspicions which attached to them in this matter tainted their character in the administration of justice. But the evidence as to the caprice and irregularity that existed in the granting of licences to public-houses could not be disputed; it was so full, so complete, and so damnatory. In consequence, however, of the observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he would direct the attention of hon. Members to the evidence of the Recorder of Yarmouth, who spoke from an experience of seventeen years, acting as a magistrate, and who was equally acquainted with the towns of Yarmouth, Norwich, Lynn, and Ipswich. That gentleman even stated that there was favour- ter. They were magistrates themselves itism and corruption of every descrip- that had come forward to speak against tion; that many of the licensed houses the system, and ask to be relieved from were of the lowest description, but that the duty at present imposed upon them; it was vain to complain against them and it was a remarkable fact, that the hon. on account of the interest which the Member who had proposed the postponeowners of them had with gentlemen on ment of the second reading of this Bill the bench-in fact, that the magistrates for six months, was a county Member and were every year drummed up on the a magistrate. But he begged to say there licensing day in such a manner as almost was evidence in the Report to show that to preclude any respectable person from it was not the magistrates alone who were obtaining a licence it was stated that to blame in this matter, and that there were there were licensed houses which had been other people of station in society, or pos

1

medy for great and admitted evils, while the Committee had proposed nothing in lieu of what they intended to derange. He (Mr. Villiers) had only risen to vindicate the Report of that Committee from some of the charges which had been made against it; and he should not at present go farther into the subject, especially as his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had told the House that it should receive his best attention before the next Session. At all events, he hoped the House would not consent to support this measure without minutely examining the evidence upon the whole subject now before them, which had been collected with great care, and which, as he believed, would lead them to the conclusion that the plan proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman, however well meant, would be no security against many evils, and would in some respects be an aggravation of the mischievous system at present existing.

sessing peculiar property, who had interest therefore, in only proposing an experiment in the houses that were ill conducted, and that had failed, to claim for himself the who interfered with the magistrates to merit of having alone devised a reprotect them; and if they would turn to Mr. Palmer's evidence, they would see how the magistrates were sometimes told that they were injuring property when they were about to suspend a licence. The hon. and learned Gentleman, or some other Members who had preceded him, attempted to dispose of the evidence against the sys tem, by saying that it referred only to the metropolis; but if the Report was referred to, they would see that in all other parts of the country it was shown that there is an absence of all rule in granting or withdrawing the licences. The solicitor of the Victuallers' Association at Liverpool was sent up to the Committee to give evidence in favour of the system, but when he was asked upon what rule he thought the magistrates proceeded in granting licences, replied, None at all," and was obliged to admit that it was very much determined by the varying humour of the justices who attended, and that he thought many persons applied and got licences by that means who could not otherwise do so. Now, when evidence of this kind was submitted to the Committee, they were compelled to notice it, and in considering what amendment they would recommend, it was utterly impossible that they could pursue the course of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and advise this faulty system to be extended further. But, far from justifying what the learned Gentleman implied, that the Committee had no views of its own, and therefore, that his scheme should be adopted, he might see by their Report that their opinion was, that a matter so important as that of the sale of intoxicating liquors should not be left to the mercy, or caprice, or interest of any set of men, but that ample security should be taken for the character and conduct of a person engaging in the business, and that the conditions on which he might enter that business should be defined and known, and that it should be left to some responsible public officer to determine whether he had complied with those conditions, and whether he was entitled to a renewal of his licence. He believed that a system of that kind would give more satisfaction than to leave the matter to the discretion or fancy of so varying a body as the justices of the peace. The hon. and learned Gentleman had no right,

GENERAL THOMPSON said, that the question for the actual consideration of the House was, whether the subject would be better in the hands of the Government, or of the hon. Gentlemen opposite; and knowing the diversity of opinions entertained by his own constituents, he would go with the Government.

MR. BARROW said, that as a member of the Committee referred to, he felt it his duty, upon the ground that he held the opinions stated in the Report, to vote for this Bill, and thus attempt to remedy the evils arising from the admitted failure of the beer-house system. The question of free trade in beer was one to be decided when the House went into Committee. He agreed in thinking that the Report which had been animadverted on contained no imputations upon the magistrates, and seeing that, he confessed he was a little astonished at the tone of the right hon. Member (Mr. Villiers) in respect to those gentlemen. For himself, he believed the conduct of the magistrates to be above suspicion.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the question."

The House divided:-Ayes 180; Noes 213: Majority 33.

Words added; Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Bill put off for six months.

Hatchell, J.
Hay, Lord J.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Heard, J. I.

Henchy, D. O'C.
Holland, E.

Hope, A. J. B. B.

Horsman, rt. hon. E.
Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Hutt, W.

Jackson, W.

Jermyn, Earl

Jervoice, Sir J. C.

Ramsay, Sir A.
Ricardo, O.
Rich, H.

Roupell, W.
Russell, Lord J.
Russell, Sir W.
Scholefield, W.

Sclater, G.
Shafto, R. D.
Shelley, Sir J. V.
Sheridan, H. B.
Slaney, R. A.

Smith, J. A.

Johnstone, J. J. H.

Ker, R.

King, hon. P. J. L.
Kinglake, A. W.

Kinglake, J. A.

Smith, J. B.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.
Smith, A.
Smith, Sir F.

Somers, J. P.

House had come to, to defer all questions
of reform to the next Session. The pre-
sent Bill, however, dealt with the elected
rather than with the electors, and the
noble Lord at the head of the Government
had himself answered the objection referred
to, by introducing this year a Bill which
dealt with the interests of the elected
he meant the Parliamentary Oaths Bill,
which the present Bill in some measure
resembled, as it only regarded the decla-
ration which new Members had to make
after taking the Oaths. The question in-
volved in this Bill never had been treated
as any portion of a Reform Bill, except in

Knatchbull-Hugessen, E Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W. 1852, when the substance of this very Bill

Lennox, Lord II. G.

Levinge, Sir R.

Liddell, hon. H. G.

Lowe, rt. hon. R.

Lygon, hon. F.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Macarthy, A.

M'Cann, J.

MacEvoy, E.

Mackie, J.

Marsh, M. H.

formed one of the clauses of the measure then introduced. The Bill which he now asked the House to read a second time could not be called an innovation, because if passed it would only result in a recurrence to the ancient state of things which existed previously to the last century, when no property qualification whatever was re

Tollemache, hon. F. J. quired for Members of Parliament.

Mostyn, hon. T. E. M. L. Villiers, rt. hon. C. P.

Mowbray, J. R.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Napier, Sir C.

Vivian, hon. J. C. W.
Vivian, H. H.
Walter, J.
Warburton, G. D.
Watkin, E. W.
Watkins, Col. L.
Weguelin, T. M.
Whatman, J.
Whitbread, S.
Willcox, B. M'G.
Williams, M.
Williams, W.
Willyams, E. W. B.
Wise, J. A.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Wood, W.
Wyndham, W.
Wyvill, M.
Yorke, hon. E. T.

TELLERS.

Seymer, H. K.
Brown, W.

PROPERTY QUALIFICATION BILL.

SECOND READING MOVED.

Order for Second Reading read. MR. LOCKE KING said, that the only objection which had been urged against it, so far as he was aware, was one of a formal character, arising out of an implied understanding which it was said that the

Such

was still the state of the law as regarded Scotch Members, and previous to the Union it also prevailed in Ireland. It was only fair, he thought, that it should now be extended to both the latter classes of Members. Qualifications for Members of Parliament it was known were often bought and sold, and many men of integrity had been known to take the Oaths who had no bona fide qualification. The Bill he felt every confidence would be attended with the greatest benefit, and, without further trespassing upon the attention of the House, he begged to move its second reading.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

SIR GEORGE GREY said, that when his noble Friend at the head of the Government announced his intention to bring in a Reform Bill next year, it was qualified with the understanding to which the House had agreed, that this and all other Bills which affected the representation of the people should not be proceeded with in the present Session of Parliament. That being so, he would, without entering into the merits of the question, suggest to his hon. and learned Friend that he should postpone its consideration; but, if he were not disposed to take that course, he begged to move as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. For the same reason, also, he should feel,