official trustees as there are official assignees, but with this difference, that any one might prefer having trustees of his own appointment. LORD CAMPBELL said, he thought their Lordships were greatly indebted to his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) for having directed his attention to this important subject; and, indeed, considering his noble and learned Friend's profound knowledge of equity and questions affecting real estate, he was rather surprised they had not had a measure from him on the subject before. In his (Lord Campbell's) opinion, this measure was a proper accompaniment of the penal Bill which had been introduced in the other House. It was most desirable that trustees who acted honestly should be protected, while those who were guilty of fraud should be subjected to severe punishment. Not being familiar with the proceedings in Courts of Equity, he had been quite horrified to learn in what manner trustees were dealt with in those courts. He could assure their Lordships that no such iniquities were perpetrated in the Courts of Common Law. The status of trustees would undoubtedly be much improved by this Bill; but he thought that, in its present form, the measure would sometimes operate with great injustice in the case of the cestuisqui trustent and other persons beneficially interested. If, as in the instance given by the noble and learned Lord, a trustee were empowered to pay a widow a certain annuity, and he paid her half as much more as she was entitled to receive, which she expended for the benefit of the children who were the persons interested after her, he would have no remedy under the existing law; but the noble and learned Lord proposed to enable the trustee to recover the overpayment or to deduct it from the annuity. He (Lord Campbell) thought, however, that the trustee would not be quite blameless, because it was the duty of persons who undertook the responsible office of trustees to ascertain carefully what payments they were called upon and empowered to make. He trusted his noble and learned Friend would reconsider this subject, and would in such cases allow the loss to fall upon the negligent trustees. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he wished to guard himself from being understood as giving any decided opinion on the Bill at the present moment. It was exceedingly difficult to understand a measure of this description, even if it were placed in their hands to read, but it was impossi ble that any one could have followed his noble and learned Friend through all the details into which he had entered. It struck him, however, that his noble and learned Friend was attempting to attain an object which was impracticable. The noble and learned Lord's object, as he understood it, was to protect innocent trustees against punishment for breaches of trust. If the rules which regulated the conduct of trustees operated harshly they should be altered by the Legislature; but they could not leave the law as it now stood, and say it was the duty of trustees to follow a certain course while they gave legislative protection to trustees who did not pursue that course. The Legislature ought to define the duties of trustees, who, if they discharged those duties, would, of course, be exempt from all responsibility. If, however, they did not perform their duties, he did not see why they should be relieved from responsibility. He was far from saying that the rules by which the conduct of trustees was regulated might not in some instances be too harsh; but if that were the case those rules ought to be relaxed. He did not see how they could leave the rules as they were, and yet absolve trustees from the consequences of their negligence. He hoped, however, that their Lordships would read the Bill a first time; and the most convenient course would be to postpone its further progress until the measure relating to the same subject now pending in the other House came before their Lordships, when the provisions of the two Bills could be considered together. It had been suggested by one of his noble and learned Friends that it was not politic to legislate upon this subject while the public mind was so much excited by the recent defalcations; but he could assure his noble Friend that the Bill which had been introduced into the other House was not the mere consequence of the events of the last year. That measure, although not actually matured, was put in train last year; but recent events had shown the urgent necessity of legislation on the subject; and, although there were numerous difficulties connected both with the measure of his noble and learned Friend and that now before the other House, he thought Parliament ought not to shrink from grappling with those difficulties. LORD LIFFORD suggested that some means should be adopted for obviating the sued, and he had asked them if the delays necessity to which trustees were constantly arose from anything that required alterreduced of resorting to the Court of Chan-ation, to which he had received answers cery, and subjecting trust property to what not entirely to his satisfaction, but which he must call the legal robbery of that led strongly to the conclusion that the court. ["Hear, hear!"] The expression complaints made, though not unfounded, was certainly a strong one, but he thought were greatly exaggerated. Business, howvery few of their Lordships could be ac- ever, was increasing so rapidly, that he quainted with the iniquities of the Court believed it would be found necessary to of Chancery. Indeed, they might as well increase the staffs of those Judges. With expect the Emperor of Russia to be ac- regard to the Accountant General's office, quainted with the iniquities perpetrated by he found it was necessary to make an custom-house officers in the remotest cor- increase there, and it was now being done, ners of his dominions as to expect that the if not actually carried out-namely, the Lord Chancellor should be cognizant of, addition of one clerk in each department or should be able to prevent, the robberies in the Accountant General's office, which of the Court of Chancery. He could, how he was assured would be found sufficient ever, assure their Lordships that the Court for the work to be performed. If the same of Chancery gave facilities for the commis- delays occurred at the chambers of the sion of frauds in relation to trust matters common law Judges, arising from an inof which he was quite sure his noble and crease of business, it would be necessary learned Friend was utterly ignorant. The to increase the staff there also. Suitors noble Lord proceeded to complain that the ought to be able to obtain their appointdelays in proceedings before the Judges' ments at a day's notice, or no notice at clerks were quite as great as those formerly all, after the Courts had decided on the experienced in the Masters' offices, and cases. concluded by asking the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack whether it was intended to expedite the business in the Judges' chambers by giving additional clerks to the Vice Chancellors and the Master of the Rolls? THE LORD CHANCELLOR protested against the remarks of the noble Lord relative to the Court of Chancery, and said that in all cases of similar complaint that had come under his notice, he had found after investigation that the delays arose on the part of the advisers of the suitors not moving in the causes, and not from any impediments thrown in the way by the courts or their officers. He could not say if it was the intention of the Government to increase the number of officers in the Vice Chancellors' or the Masters of the Rolls' chambers, because he had not sufficiently investigated the subject-but he was told that the same delay did not arise in the former as in the Masters' offices. It was preposterous to compare the present state of things with what existed formerly. He had, however, been told that a delay of a week or a fortnight now occurred at the Vice Chancellor's chambers before an appointment could be obtained after a judgment, and he had in consequence consulted all the officials relative to the amount of business at each of the chambers, the hours at which they attended, and the course pur Bill read 1a. House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, halfpast Ten o'clock. THE INDIAN ARMY.-QUESTION. MR. RICH asked the President of the Board of Control whether since the passing of the Act. 16 & 17 Vict. c. 95, any measures have been taken for increasing the European officers in the Sepoy regiments, for checking the drain of the number of regimental officers to civil employments, and for otherwise securing the constant presence, with their regiments, of a greater number of European officers than at the time of the passing of that Act appeared to be the practice in the Indian Army. Also, whether any measures have been taken for raising the general condition of the Native officers, and for opening promotion to the rank of Native officer at a shorter term than the twenty or thirty years of previous service by which it then appeared ordinarily to be obtained. MR. RICH said, he trusted he might be allowed to ask whether the increase of the number of officers in the Sepoy regiments had taken place irrespective of the increase in the number of men? He had been induced to put his questions quite independently of recent events in India. MR. VERNON SMITH said, he considered that he had already answered that question in the affirmative on a previous occasion. CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-NOTICE. MR. VERNON SMITH said, he would | Lord Canning, and the excellent demonstate, in answer to the question of the strations which had been made upon the hon. Gentleman, that since the passing of occasion of the disbandment of the 19th the Act, which he had referred to, one Regiment by General Hearsey, as well as captain and one lieutenant had been added the eloquent and stirring speech to which to each Sepoy regiment, both of infantry that gallant officer had then given utterand cavalry, and two captains and two ance, and which, as a sample of military lieutenants to each European regiment of eloquence, he would advise every one to infantry. With respect to the checking read, the late disaffection among the the drain of regimental officers to civil troops in India had been put an end to, employments, he could only say that the and he felt quite sure any such occurCourt of Directors had now under their rence would in future be put an end to consideration a despatch, which would be by the exhibition of the same promptitude submitted to the notice of the Board of and the same vigour as that to which he Control, placing the state of things in had just referred. regard to that point upon a better footing, by equalizing the advantages to officers remaining in the regiments with those which a withdrawal from them presented. At the same time, the subject was one which required a great deal of consideration. He might further add that, in accordance with a recent regulation, the officers in the Queen's regiments were competent to obtain staff employment, and that as a consequence the number of Company's officers required for that purpose would be diminished. Respecting his hon. Friend's second question, he was not aware that any measures had been taken with the view of raising the general condition of Native officers, nor did he know that any complaints had been made upon the subject. Nothing had been done in reference to the question of opening promotion to the rank of Native officer at a shorter period than the ordinary term of twenty or thirty years, and he might also remind the hon. Gentleman that the service in India was one in which the system of promotion by seniority prevailed. In the Presidency of Bombay, it was true, promotions from the ranks to some extent took place on the ground of merit, and it certainly might become a matter for consideration how far it would be expedient to extend that system to the other Presidencies. As the question of the hon. Gentleman might have been dictated by the unfortunate occurrences which had recently taken place in India, it might possibly be desirable that he (Mr. Vernon Smith) should state that those occurrences, so far as he was aware, were in no way to be attributed to the absence of the officers from their regiments. He should add the expression of a hope that the public would be under no alarm upon that subject, as, owing to the promptitude and vigour which had been displayed by his noble Friend MR. WILSON said, he would now beg to give notice that it was his intention to move to-morrow night the Civil Service Estimates as soon as the Chairman of Ways and Means took the chair in Committee of Supply. He proposed, then, to make a general statement in reference to the large increase of charges which had taken place within the last five or six years in connection with those Estimates, in order to afford the House ample opportunity for discussing a question in which it was evident the public had of late taken. much interest. He thought it would be better to take the course which he had indicated than to leave the question to be dealt with in a desultory discussion upon each Vote as it arose. MR. HENLEY said, he wished to know whether he understood that the Secretary of the Treasury intended to bring on a general discussion of the Civil Service Estimates, because a portion of the Civil Estimates were only delivered that morning, and the House would scarcely be ready to-morrow to go into a general discussion of those Estimates? MR. WILSON said, that his intention was, on going into Committee of Supply when the Chairman of Ways and Means was in the chair, to make a general statement, not having reference to the Esti mates of the present year, but to the great increase which had taken place in those Estimates from 1852 to 1856, including those of the present year. Six numbers of those Estimates were now in the hands of Members, but the seventh, which contained the accidental and occasional charges of the year, would not be ready for some time. MR. DISRAELI: I should like to know, Sir, whether the hon. Member intends, when the House is in Committee of Supply, to go into the Civil Estimates or not? MR. WILSON: Yes, certainly. After any remarks which hon. Members may make, I shall propose the first Vote in the Civil Service Estimates. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: What my hon. Friend proposes is, in moving the first Resolution in Committee of Supply, to make a statement of the causes and nature of the increase that has taken place of late years in the total amount of the Miscellaneous or Civil Service Estimates, with a view, not of giving a general view of all the particular Votes, but of stating the nature of the augmentations which have taken place of late years in the Civil Estimates. SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair whether the Secretary to the Treasury would be in order in taking a general discussion on a single Vote? He had been himself called to order on a similar occasion, and told that he must confine himself to the particular subject under discussion on the Vote before the House. MR. SPEAKER: In answer to the question of the hon. Member, I conceive that if the Secretary to the Treasury explains, for the convenience of the House and for the general information of Members, the foundation on which these Votes are offered to the House he will not be out of order in so doing. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that as his noble Friend at the head of the Government would not be in his place to-night, the Report on the Committee of Supply would not be brought up that evening. There were several Notices of Motion on the Report, and it would therefore be postponed until to morrow. MR. HENLEY: At what time will the Report be taken? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: After the Committee of Supply on the Civil Service Estimates. SIR FRANCIS BARING: In consequence of what has fallen from the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, I beg leave to give notice that upon the Motion for going into Committee upon the Civil Service Estimates I propose to call the attention of the House to the expenditure in connection with the Parks, without a Vote of Parliament. DUCHY OF LANCASTER. MR. WISE rose to call the attention of the House to the accounts of the Duchy of Lancaster presented to Parliament in pursuance of the Act 1 & 2 Vict. c. 101, and to move an Address for a Return of all Manors and Estates now belonging to the Crown in right of the Duchy of Lancaster; of all Sales, Grants, and Enfranchisements which have taken place since 1838; of the purchases and exchanges of Land which have been made since the same period, and the date and terms of all existing Leases of the Lands, Mines, and Rents of the said Duchy. The hon. Gentleman said, that his Motion was totally disconnected from that of any other hon. Member's with reference to the Duchy of Lancaster. His Motion referred to a subject in which he had taken a great interest for many years. So far back as the year 1854 he had moved for certain returns with reference to the question, when he was met by a right hon. Gentleman below him, with a declaration that the Motion referred so much to what concerned private rights and private property, that he might as well ask for returns with respect to the rental of any hon. Gentleman in that House. Indeed, having since thought a good deal over the subject, he had come to the conclusion that this was a doctrine put forward by the Government as it suited their convenience. When Parliament wanted anything of the Duchy, the property was always private; but when the Duchy wanted anything of Parliament, it was invariably public. It appeared, however, that Parliament had dealt with this property from time to time. He found, on looking into the history of the Duchy, that the first Duke of Lancaster, Henry IV., on his ascent to the throne, believing his position rather slippery, was obliged to come to Parliament to ask for a severance of these estates from the Crown lands. Henry V. followed the same course, and added to the Duchy the property of his mother, which was considerable. Things went on in that way up to the time of Edward IV., but he having no sympathy with the House of Lancaster, sequestered the estates, and added them to the revenue of the Crown. However, Henry VII. once more came to Parliament and severed the Duchy from the Crown. Singularly enough, Oliver Cromwell was the last who dealt with the revenues of the Duchy, for owing to the death of Charles I., the estates became national property. In his latter days, Oliver Cromwell, having an eye to making a promotion for some of his family, had once more severed the Duchy from the national property. Charles II. had not attempted to alter the settlement, and so things had remained down to the present day, with the distinction, that scarcely a reign passed in which the House of Commons had not limited the estates of the Duchy. He would show what Parliament had done with reference to the Duchy. And first let him call the attention of the House to a Bill that had been introduced by persons no less distinguished than Lord John Cavendish, Burke, and Fox, which might show the feeling of the then House of Commons and be a guide to the present House. This was a Bill "For uniting to the Crown the Duchy and County Palatine of Lancaster, for the suppression of unnecessary offices, now belonging thereto; for the ascertainment and security of tenant and other rights, and for the sale of all rents, lands, tenements, and hereditaments, and forests, within the said Duchy and County Palatine, or either of them, and for applying the produce thereof to the public service." This took place in the reign of George III. and in an unreformed Parliament. He would quote one more authority. A distinguished orator of that House, who afterwards became Lord Chancellor, used these expressions in 1837: "It never surely can be contended that the re venues of the two Duchies are private property, or anything like private property. I should like to hear such a proposition advanced in this age. I should like to see the man endued with courage to maintain it. I should like to see the man, whether on the Ministerial or Opposition benches, gifted with the confidence which must be exhibited by him, who would affirm that Cornwall and Lancaster are private and personal property, and not public funds vested in the Sovereign, only as such; enjoyed as Sovereign, and in right of the Crown alone; held as public property for the benefit of the State, and as a parcel of the national possessions."-[3 Hansard, xxxix. 1356.] These were the opinions of Lord Brougham, who, he rejoiced, had returned to this country in health and strength, and would, he hoped, advocate views similar to those that VOL. CXLV. [THIRD SERIES.] he had previously expressed. The next stage in the history of this property was the passing of an Act requiring the accounts of the Duchy to be laid on the table every year. This clearly showed that the House intended it to be regarded as public property, and that its affairs should be subjected, if necessary, to the criticism and interference of Parliament. It might appear a fruitless and even a quixotic undertaking for an humble private Member like himself to suggest reforms in such a venerable institution. Still, knowing what he did of the state of the property of the Duchy in different counties in England, of the forests of Needwood and Pickering, and the mines of Staffordshire, he thought that he was bound to state the facts, and to call on the officers of the Duchy to do their duty, not only to the State, but the Sovereign they represented. He approached the subject in no captious or fault-finding spirit. He had the advantage of the Duchy at heart; he desired to see its revenues better managed, and Her Majesty receiving more of them. He wished to expose a medieval system, and to prune what he could only term a cumbrous Gothic establishment. The accounts on the table proved that the revenues of the Duchy scarcely more than nominally belonged to the Royal Lady who claimed them. The burden upon the estate was almost as great as the return derived from it, its income being nearly all eaten up by idle or useless functionaries. In a recent debate great stress was laid on the of the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster; fact that the Sovereign was in the receipt but if hon. Gentlemen believed that Her Majesty reaped the benefit of this property, they did her very great injustice, because, while this valuable estate, scattered over twenty counties of England, together with the woods of Pickering and Needwood, and the coal-fields of Staffordshire, undoubtedly yielded a large revenue, that revenue, as far as Her Majesty was concerned, was chiefly a revenue on paper, and never entered the privy purse. No one was more truly beloved and esteemed in that House than the Chancellor of this Duchy; and if his office were abolished, he (Mr. Wise) should be glad to see the talents of its occupant employed in some position worthier of them, whether as a Minister of Justice, or as a Secretary of State. He therefore begged the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baines) to understand that he entirely excluded him from 3 E |