exertions. MR. BAILLIE said, the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) had mentioned the case of an officer who had lately retired upon a pension of £1,000. From the description the hon. Baronet had given, he presumed he alluded to Colonel Mundy, who had received the appointment of Governor of the island of Jersey. He hoped the Under Secretary for War would explain whether Colonel Mundy had had that pension conferred upon him, and, if so, by whose authority it had been conferred. MR. LINDSAY hoped that the Government would not assent to the proposal of the hon. Member (Mr. Stafford) to place a transport at the service of the medical department. The truth was, that all the evils they had had to deplore during the late war were caused by the meddling of departments; whereas, the proper course would have been for those departments to report to the Admiralty what they wanted, and to leave to the Admiralty the responsibility of shipping and delivering the stores they required. Suppose, when the soldiers were dying for want of medicine, a ship freighted with drugs alone were to be lost. The proper course was to send out medical comforts as they were required, and not to run the risk of sending out a shipload of them, as the hon. Gentleman had recommended. was mainly indebted to the noble Lord's had since found were partially made by some regiments of militia. The other night a letter was read from a gallant general with regard to the teaching of military drawing and the like; but it had struck him as surprising, that only six officers should attend the classes. He had been informed that six applications had been made from one regiment, and that they had been declined. Two of the regiments were about to be sent under canvass to another part of the heath; but a body of engineers had been sent to dig wells and to prepare the ground for them. In short, the whole system of Aldershot was one of parade rather than of practice. With regard to the responsibility and duties of the various military departments, he thought the army greatly indebted to the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), for having introduced that subject to the attention of the House; and he hoped the noble Lord at the head of the War Department, and the Under Secretary for War, would take steps to remove the want of harmony which now existed, and that such a reform would be introduced in our military system as would ensure to all ranks and classes, from the general to the soldier, equal chances of success in the profession they had made their choice. He did not mean to attack individuals, when he spoke of a system which had been engrafted on our military CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, he must com- system, and had at last become really part plain that the observations he had made and parcel of it-he meant the system of on a former night relative to the camp favouritism. Until that was abolished, he at Aldershot had been misrepresented believed there was no hope of introducing by the noble Lord at the head of the any method of education into the army, or Government. He begged to say, that he encouraging our officers and men to strive quite approved of the purchase of Alder- to improve themselves in the different shot, while as to the pecuniary part of the branches of their profession. When a question, he was willing to take the word man knew that it was connection, not of the noble Lord. Neither did he object competency, which ensured success, he to the massing of troops during the sum- would not struggle. The time had arrivmer months. What he objected to was, ed when reforms were about to be introthat what was intended to be a camp duced into our military system, and he should become a military town, for if once hoped that, among other things, this subthe Government began to build large bar-ject would be taken into consideration, racks, they would do away with the ori-and that in future we should find that ginal intention of the establishment of Al- all the ranks in the army had an equal dershot. At present, it was by no means chance of promotion according to their a practical camp, but was more like a merits. squatters' village, and soldiers had no opportunity of learning field duties there. It had been drained and improved by contract, and the soldiers had not turned a sod, with the exception of some field works, which, in the first instance, he had thought were executed by contract, but which he COLONEL GILPIN said, that he had thought, after the full and able statement of General Knollys, which had been read to the House the other night, that an Aldershot discussion was at an end for the present, and had felt that it would have been presumptuous in him to have offered LORD NAAS said, that there were unfortunately a great many petty offences committed in the neighbourhood of a camp; and the country naturally complained of the expense incurred in conveying the delinquents to and from the county gaol. He would ask, therefore, if it were the intention of the Government to establish a prison or bridewell in the neighbourhood of the Curragh camp? SIR DE LACY EVANS said, that with respect to certain reports having reference to the site of Netley Hospital, and the alleged defects in the mode of ventilating that establishment, it would be better, if those reports were well founded, to abandon the scheme, notwithstanding the money that had been expended upon it. any remarks in corroboration of a Report was notorious for its sanitary advantages, upon such a subject from such a quarter. and, as to desertion, he could only say, But as the matter had been again alluded that during the five or six months his reto this evening, and he (Colonel Gilpin) giment was at Aldershot he had not lost a had had the command of a militia regi- single man by desertion from the ranks. ment at Aldershot for five or six months, A great deal of volunteering was going he would briefly mention a few facts which on into the line, for his men said, if they had come under his observation whilst he were to do the work of the line, they was there. So far from being a camp of might as well have its advantages. If he luxury and indolence, military instruction had been in the House, he should have and drill were always going on. In addi- supported the Vote asked for by the Gotion to the usual parades, and weather per-vernment, for so far from being a failure, mitting, there were two field-days a week. Aldershot had been in many respects preThe men, both of the militia and the line, eminently successful. were constantly practised in cooking their breakfast and dinner in the field, in route marching, outpost duty, brigade evolutions, and pontooning. Some of the men were placed under the Engineers' department to learn the construction of military bridges and other such duties. The soldiers had not only, when he was there, to pitch and strike their tents, but to occupy them too at a not very agreeable season in the year. With respect to the supply of water, if wells were required to be sunk, the Engineer department would have been the proper department to sink them; but no assistance was rendered by them, and the troops obtained water from the canal, and filtered it for their own use. It was true, the men were not engaged in fieldworks, but it was because they could not find time for field-works. The regiments being all newly raised, the men had to go through an extra quantity of drill; as many as 1,000 men were then engaged in filling ruts and levelling the ground. All that could be done was done. A more painstaking and efficient officer than General Knollys could not be found in the Queen's service, and it was perfectly marvellous to see what he did with the raw recruits, whom he turned, as if by magic, into good troops. He (Colonel Gilpin) was one of those who were responsible for the purchase of Aldershot, and he believed that there never was a better investment of the public money. For strategic purposes, he believed it was well selected, and for military purposes it was perfect. It contained a great extent and variety of ground-hill and dale, wood and water, and he felt some surprise at the objections now urged, when he remembered how the Government, night after night were urged, to get some place in which large bodies of men could be moved together. But then it was said, Aldershot was disagreeable, and that the men disliked it and deserted. Now, the place MR. BUTT said, he wished to inquire whether the Government intended to act upon the Report of the Commissioners, who recommended that free places in Woolwich should be given to the two can. didates who stood first at each entrance examination, and that the two next should pay only half the contribution which would otherwise be required from them? The adoption of that recommendation would encourage emulation, and thereby raise the standard of education. He would also ask whether any provision to carry it out would be made in the Estimates of this year? SIR JOHN RAMSDEN said, the question put to him by the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny) related to the case of a gallant officer who had been civilly employed under the War Department, and was now governor of one of the dependencies of the Crown. The hon. Baronet asked what amount of pension that gallant officer would be entitled to at the end of his five years' service as governor; but he (Sir J. Ramsden) could not at present state what the exact amount would be. If, however, the hon. Baronet opened on the corridor and the other into MR. PALK said, that he would revert to the subject of Netley Hospital, as he wished to observe, that although it might be the opinion of the medical men of Southampton that the situation was salu would repeat his question another time, he would take care to supply him with full information on the subject. With reference to the remarks of the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), he hoped there was now no fear, under present arrangements, of the inconvenience to which the hon. Member had alluded again occurring. The hon. Gentleman had referred to the recommendation that the Director General of the Medical Department should have a transport under his authority for the special conveyance of medical stores. The omission of that provision might, and he believed did, lead to great inconvenience when the departments were divided into so many different heads. But now that they were brought together under one authority he thought there was not that danger, because it was naturally the duty of the Storekeeper General to consider what stores had to be sent out, and he would have to arrange with the Admiralty how the different transports should be loaded. There would not, there-brious, the medical men of other districts fore, be a danger of any omission such as there was when so many Boards had to be consulted before a conclusion was arrived at. As to the question of the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas) with regard to the Curragh camp, it was not the intention of the Government to establish a military prison in its neighbourhood. They believed that the existing arrangements were sufficient, and for this reason, that they intended to keep the Curragh as a camp of instruction for the summer only. Therefore there would not be that necessity to provide for the custody of offenders which would exist if the camp were kept open all the year round. With respect to the question of the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster on the subject of Netley Hospital, he could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there was no intention whatever on the part of Government to abandon the building. There was every reason to hope that there was no foundation for the rumour that the situation was an unhealthy one owing to the amount of land that was left bare at low tide. On the contrary, a meeting had been held of the medical body in Southampton, and they had drawn up a report favourable to the locality. With respect to the report that the windows opened on a corridor instead of upon the open air, and thus rendered the wards unhealthy, he was informed that there were windows at either end of the wards, and that one might entertain a different opinion, and think that, though it was a salubrious place, it was not the most salubrious. But as these reports had been very extensively circulated, and were likely to be productive of very great injury to the patients, through the fears which such reports excited, he would venture to suggest to the Government that it would be by no means a bad thing if they sent down certain of their military physicians to make a report as to the salubrity of the site in question. MR. TITE was understood to state that the system of ventilation introduced at Guy's Hospital had been found to answer exceedingly well. GENERAL WYNDHAM said, he would beg to call the attention of the Government to the injustice which he conceived was done to those officers who were compulsorily placed on half pay. It was the system at present to put them on the regiment again at the bottom of the list; whereas he thought it would be no more than fair that those who had served and been forced into half pay against their will should be replaced in the regiment in the same position they would have filled had they continued in the service. SIR FREDERICK SMITH said, he wished to observe, with reference to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Vivian), that well-digging was a distinct calling, and was not unattended with danger to those who did not understand it. He thought, therefore, that it was quite right that the task of forming them should be entrusted to the sappers and miners. With regard to the classes for instruction in military surveying, there were already twelve officers at Aldershot engaged in teaching that, but he would recommend the Under Secretary for War to increase their number, as the applications for instruction in that branch of education were more numerous than could be attended to. The suggestion to establish a camp at Aldershot proceeded from the late Lord Hardinge, who thought it was a very good position from which to despatch troops to various parts of the coast in case of attack. SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY wished to know if the civil establishments of the army were under regulation or not. On the 6th of June, 1855, an Order in Council for regulating them was adopted, and laid upon the table of the House; but he had some reason to believe that that scheme had been revoked and another substituted for it by another Order in Council which had never been furnished to the House. MR. NEWDEGATE had heard much of the great difficulties connected with the civil departments of the army. Those difficulties, he understood, arose from the circumstance that there was no definition of the responsibility which rested upon the heads of the different departments; and there were no means by which the House could ascertain who was responsible for the performance of the duties of the several establishments connected with the civil service of the army. He hoped that before long the noble Lord would be in a position to furnish the House with the details of the contemplated scheme, so that hon. Members who took an interest in the service might know upon whom the responsibility for those establishments rested. "2. That the Survey of Scotland be carried on, as it has been in Ireland, the Northera portion of England, and a large portion of Scotland, on a scale of six inches to the mile, and that it be engraved on that scale: inch to the mile, be also reduced from the six 3. That a Map of Scotland, on a scale of one inch map for engraving and publication." Owing, however, to the forms of the House, the Motion with which he should conclude, would be, that the Vote be reduced by £36,000. Hon. Members should understand that they were about to vote to-night on the question whether the 25-inch survey for Scotland should or should not be continued. This was a most important question; it was a question involving no one knew how many millions of money; and yet it had never been adequately discussed in that House. The original design was to survey the whole of the United Kingdom on the scale of six inches to the mile, and to publish also for general purposes a map of the scale of one inch. In 1851 some Scotch gentlemen thought fit to be dissatisfied, and they moved for a Committee. The result was a recommendation that the six-inch survey should be discontinued. That produced great dissatisfaction, and a list of questions were sent out, to which 130 answers were received in favour of a map on a scale as large as possible, and thirty-eight in favour of a smaller scale. The Government then appointed three gentlemen to report on the subject, and they appeared to have formed their opinions by counting the number of answers on either side; but in point of fact the opinion of one practical man who had used, and could speak from experience of, the 6-inch map, was worth that of fifty or a hundred who had no practical knowledge of the subject. In 1856 there was a discussion in Committee of Supply on the question; but no notice was given, and there was no trace of any division in the journals of the House. The right hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) estimated that the 25-inch survey would entail upon the country a charge of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000, adding that he doubted whether a tenth part of those who had voted on the subject knew what the question was, or the extent of the expenditure into which they were plunging the country. After such a statement from so high an authority, he thought he was justified in utterly denying that the sense of the House had been properly taken the upon subject. He believed that no country in the world possessed more beautiful maps than those on the scale of six inches to the mile pos sessed by parts of Scotland. The Irish maps on the same scale bore no comparison to them in point of clearness and of use. They showed every ditch, the smallest fence, every bridge, every stream, marked out the garden walks in a gentleman's domains, and actually gave the position of the pumps; and yet the Scotch gentlemen were not satisfied with maps of this accuracy and minuteness, but asked for others on a scale of twenty-five inches. Now, he could conceive nothing more monstrous than a proposition of this kind. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had referred the consideration of this question to a Committee, and nine members had voted for the 25-inch survey. On this Committee of fifteen there were no fewer than ten Scotchmen, while there were only five English Members, one of whom (Captain Laffan) was unable to attend in consequence of official duties, and of the nine Members who had voted for the Report, eight were Scotch Members. Now, he challenged the composition of this Committee as being most unfair, and he could by no means understand how it was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government should think it a matter of duty to adhere to their decision. The thing was altogether so absurd that he was surprised the noble Lord below him (Lord Elcho) should refer to the Report of this Committee for the guidance of the House. He had He had a high opinion of the personal honour of the Scotch, but surely, in considering a question involving to such an extent their own interest, there ought to have been more than five English Members upon this Committee. He (Sir D. Norreys) therefore called upon the House to intercept this vast expenditure. Colonel Hall, who for many years was the director of the survey, said the time and cost attending the 24-inch scale (at that time proposed) would be so enormous compared with the 12-inch scale, that he thought the larger survey ought not to be adopted unless it could be shown that great advantages would accrue therefrom. The gallant officer went on to say that the estimates laid before the Committee showed that the 24-inch scale would cost 2s. per acre, and the 6-inch survey only 1s. per acre. The Irish survey at present had cost about £946,000-that is in round numbers a million-but as not more than four-fifths of it had been completed, its total cost would probably be £1,200,000. Scotland, upon the same VOL. CXLV. [THIRD SERIES.] but upon the on a scale, would cost as much, 25-inch scale, if they took Colonel Hall's calculation of 2s. an acre, the expense would certainly be not less than £2,000,000. But if Scotland were to have a beautiful map on that large scale, England would, no doubt, demand a similar map, the cost of which would be about £4,000,000; and Ireland, of course, would not be satisfied, unless she also had a survey made upon the same enormous scale. He now approached the most difficult part of his task, which was to prove that Scotch gentlemen did not know their own interests. He held that, as a general rule, a great map was a great evil, and that if you could get what you wanted on a small scale it was infinitely preferable to a large one. For example, the 6-inch maps which had been published contained 15,360 acres sheet, laid down with such accuracy that an estate could be measured on them with the utmost nicety. A gentleman, therefore, with an estate of 4,000 or 5,000 acres in extent, the usual size of a moderate estate in Scotland, would find the whole of it upon one sheet; but if the 25-inch scale were adopted a sheet would not contain above 800 or 900 acres, and as by some ill-fortune the boundaries of property were sure to fall irregularly, he would have to purchase seven or eight sheets in order to have a complete map of his estate. Chancellor of the Exchequer usually so measured in his language, had said, that upon that scale the map of Scotland would be about as large as Westminster Hall. That would be the standard map; but as it would be utterly useless for most practical purposes on account of its immense size, it was proposed to reduce it by mechanical means to a scale of six inches to the mile, and that again was further to be mechanically reduced to a scale of one inch to the mile. Professional men, however, agreed that no map could be perfect unless it were laid down directly from the field-books of the surveyors; so that in the case of Scotland there would be the standard map, too large and cumbrous to be of practical utility, and two smaller maps, which would not be correct owing to the difficulty of reducing with perfect accuracy by mechanical means made from the original survey. The Committee of 1856 suggested that a map on the large scale would be useful for the registration of titles. He contended that a 6-inch map would be abundantly sufficient for this purpose. He stated this on the authority of Mr. 3 U The |