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THE DESIGNS FOR PUBLIC OFFICES.

COMMISSION. QUESTION. THE DUKE OF SOMERSET rose to put a question to the Lord President, respecting the Commission on the Designs for Public Offices. He understood that within the last few days a Royal Commission had been appointed to examine and report on the designs now being exhibited in Westminster Hall. Their Lordships would remember that we had had such Commissions in former times, and that on their reports we had begun buildings which we had not finished yet, and which he was afraid we should continue to build for a long time to come, while no one could tell what we should have to pay before we saw their completion. He begged to warn the Government as to what they were about to undertake. He was afraid they were going to begin an expenditure which would be almost ruinous in the end. First of all they had invited architects to exhibit competing plans for public offices, and he believed all the way from the Horse Guards to Westminster was given up to the taste of the artist. Indeed, he understood Westminster-bridge was included also. Some time ago it was proposed to take down that bridge. Then the Government determined to repair it, and now again it seemed to be in contemplation to take it down. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in the course of the last Parliament, as a warning to the country, that the block of ground which was required for the scheme now proposed would cost £1,500,000. That was for the ground only. When we began these buildings (the Houses of Parliament) we had at least the ground, which belonged to the Government, a very small portion only having been bought. But if the plans now proposed were carried out, did anybody suppose that the ground could be bought at £1,500,000? Any one who knew the commercial spirit of this metropolis must be aware that the price of the land would be immediately greatly enhanced. But how far were these plans to be carried out? When the Commissioners had agreed upon a particular plan, Government would come down to Parliament for a vote of perhaps £50,000 on account this year, £40,000 next year, and so on for probably a period of not less than twenty-five years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that to carry out the plans covering this block of ground would cost £5,000,000 or £6,000,000. Now, were we wise in beginning a scheme of this

kind? What he wished to know was, what instructions had been given to the architects as to the ground they were to cover; how far Parliament would be bound by the decision of the Commission; and how we were to guard ourselves against an expenditure which we had been told by high authority would amount to not much less than £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, on the ground that we had not made any objection or taken sufficient notice of the matter in time?

EARL GRANVILLE said, his noble Friend warned the Government against beginning a system of ruinous expenditure; but he begged to remind his noble Friend that every step which had been taken by the Government in this matter had been in accordance with the recommendations of a Committee of the other House of Parliament, which recommendations had been also very generally approved by the Members of their Lordships' House. The first question asked by his noble Friend, as he understood it, amounted to thiswhether any instructions had been given to architects as to what site they might occupy. He would answer that by going back to some of the steps recommended by the Select Committee of the House of Commons. They stated in their Report that great inconvenience at present arose from the bad arrangement of the public offices; from the necessity laid upon Government of hiring buildings in inconvenient situations at most exorbitant rates; and that it was most desirable, both for the convenience and efficiency of the publie service and on the ground of economy, that there should be a concentration of the public offices, and that such concentration should be in the vicinity of Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament. tee described the position and extent of the sites which they recommended, which was bounded by the banks of the Thames, Richmond Terrace, Downing Street, and New Palace Yard; and they concluded by recommending that in case Parliament approved of the purchase of the site, the designs for the public offices should be submitted to public competition. The Government, acting on that recommendation, had issued notices, in which the architects of all nations were invited to send in designs for two different sites. One was for the block of buildings covering the whole of the larger site recommended by the Committee; another was for two offices

The Commit

namely, the War-office and the Foreign

Designs for

{LORDS}

Public Offices.

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office-on a smaller site adjoining Charles | fied and disgusted by the extravagance of Street, of which the Government was now the expenditure incurred. He readily adin possession, with the exception of a very mitted the beauty of all that had been small portion indeed. A Bill would be in- done; but unfortunately it had been overtroduced to Parliament giving power to done-the expenditure was unnecessary purchase that small portion of the smaller and out of all character for the purposes site to which he had just alluded, and when for which their Lordships assembled. No that Bill came before them, then would be doubt there might be great convenience in the proper time for raising opposition to having all the Government offices under the scheme. Government had no plan of their own, and danger of fire, which, humanly speaking, As to the larger site, the the same roof; but then, there was the thought it best to leave the matter open to it was impossible by any provision altopublic competition, giving to architects an gether to prevent. The force of a fire opportunity of showing how they would fill when it once took possession of a great it up. Parliament could then choose whe- building was such that none of their prether they would go on with the scheme or cautions could save it. with a part of it, having the public offices main objection to continuous buildings. in a well-devised and properly-arranged But let them consider how they stood. That was one manner, all connected with each other, They had been building for the last quarinstead of being, as now, disconnected. ter of a century. In the course of that This would be matter for future considera- time they had so far added to Buckingham tion. It was, however, clearly laid down Palace as practically to have made it a that the architects would have no claim new palace, of which the Crown was not whatever, except for the prize money before in possession. He recollected a offered for the several designs that might King living comfortably enough in St. be approved. The plans would become James's Palace, and keeping his court the absolute copyright of the Government, there. Give him leave to ask what was to choose from the several plans the whole the use of that palace at the present or such parts as might be found desirable; moment? Why should they not approbut the architects would not have the priate it to public offices? slightest claim to be employed in the exe- buildings were the property of the Crown, cution of the works. All these THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH, was it possible to find any building more though holding in great respect Reports convenient for a Foreign-office, more espejust as much as the Royal Palaces; and of Committees of the House of Commons, cially for the receptions which were necesdid not think it necessary for their Lord- sary in the Foreign-office, than St. James's? ships at once to acquiesce in the Resolu- If the noble Earl at the head of the Fotion to which the Committee had come in reign-office were permitted to occupy that this instance. He had not had an oppor- palace he thought he might give a dinner tunity of giving notice of the question, on the Queen's birthday without the smallbut he would take the liberty of asking est danger. Then, what was the use of the noble Earl opposite whether it was Marlborough House? absolutely necessary to occupy Westmin- trash collected there which, he regretted ster Hall, and to engage in an undertaking to say, he had recently lost half an hour They had some which would involve all this enormous ex- in inspecting, but which might be packed pense? It was quite obvious that it would up and removed without the slightest inbe perfectly impossible to complete the convenience to anybody. He understood contemplated buildings without incurring that Marlborough House was to be approan expenditure which would probably ex-priated to the residence of the Prince of ceed the whole amount raised by the property tax of 7d. in the pound for a whole such purpose. year. Was it not possible to make some the house in which his Royal Highness It was utterly unsuited for any arrangement by which to avoid that enor- could with convenience or propriety hold There was not a room in mous expense? The Houses of Parlia- a reception. It was, however, admirably ment had been building ever since the adapted for a public office, which required year 1834, and they well knew to what small rooms; whilst a residence for the an enormous extent the estimate of the Prince of Wales would require large architect had been exceeded. Some of rooms; in short, the Prince would not their Lordships were, perhaps, pleased; be able to occupy it with propriety or others, however, like himself, were morti- decency, unless at an expenditure of

Earl Granville

Wales.

Public Offices. £50,000 or £100,000 to render it habit- did not complain of the accommodation able. Then there was Schomberg House, provided for the Judges, but the accomadjoining, the lease of which he under-modation for the jury, who had to neglect stood was for sale. By the purchase of their business for the purpose of attending that, the communication between St. there without remuneration, was most disJames's Palace, Marlborough House, and graceful. For visitors there was no acthe Ordnance-office would be complete. commodation whatever, and he really felt Now, if the House of Commons would ashamed when distinguished jurists from not do its duty in these matters, their America or the Continent were introduced Lordships, though it was foreign to their to him for the purpose of witnessing the general practice, must interfere and call manner in which the proceedings in our public attention to them. The public courts of justice were conducted. He by must not be left without one House of no means wished to have a large expendiParliament, at all events, to attend to ture incurred; but he really thought that that economy so important to the public what was decent and necessary for those interests. who took part in the administration of the law ought not to be overlooked. The front of the law courts, they were told— and it was very obviously true-interfered with the regularity and beauty of Sir Charles Barry's building. He should re

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, that one of the reasons given by the noble Earl for this immense expenditure was the saving of some £30,000 a year which was now paid for the hire of offices. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, how-joice to see some plan by which, without ever, had told them that if they followed out the proposed plan, the ground alone would cost a million and a half of money. Thus, before the foundation was laid, or one brick placed upon another, at 4 per cent, they would have to pay £60,000 a year as ground-rent.

EARL GRANVILLE said, what he had stated was, that Government had formed no intention to apply to Parliament for its approval of the large plan to which the noble Earl alluded.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, that he admitted the necessity of some change as regarded the Foreign-office, for it was known that the present building had been in a very dangerous state for many years past. But as to the Waroffice, every day the accommodation wanted there was less and less, for every day the noble Lord at the head of that department was diminishing the army in a manner that to him (the Earl of Ellenborough) was most alarming. It was only a week ago that he saw it announced that there was to be a considerable diminution effected in every company of artillery. Now, for the last few years everybody had been calling out for an increase in this arm of the service; and they were told that it had been increased, and that the increase would be maintained. He could not, therefore, understand how with an army, now weak and daily diminishing, they were to have a staff constantly increasing and demanding larger accommodation.

transferring the law courts from Westminster Hall, where they were placed by immemorial prescriptive right, the objection might be removed.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE denied that the Government bound itself to any great expenditure, because it said that improvements being necessary in some offices in that part of London care should be taken not to allow those improvements to interfere with any future plan that might be adopted.

LORD REDESDALE said, he had been one of the first to call their Lordships' attention to the proceedings about to be taken with regard to the restoration of the public offices in Downing Street. It appeared to him that the scheme which the Government supported was one which would lead to a far greater expenditure than if they adopted the larger plan in the first instance. If the block of houses behind Downing Street was the proper site, it might be purchased upon much more advantageous terms now than on a future occasion. The purchase by Government of one side of one of the shabbiest streets in the neighbourhood would encourage the substitution of better houses for the old ones; thus, in the event of their hereafter requiring the remainder of the street, they would have to pay an increased value for it. Whether, therefore, they erected their public buildings in one place or another, or made them continuous buildings or not, it would cerLORD CAMPBELL had a word or two tainly be economical and prudent that to say about the courts of justice. He they should determine what ground they

could more advantageously acquire at one predecessor at the Board of Control had, time than another. By proceeding piece- in introducing the Bill of 1853, promised meal in a matter of this sort they would to appoint a Law Commission, and a Comfirst improve the value of the property mission was some time since appointed to around, and afterwards have to pay for inquire into the best mode of improving the the increased value so created. If they courts of law in India. That Commission got possession of the ground now there sat three years, and at the end of the third was no necessity for its being immediately year made a report. It appeared that a appropriated. He was quite convinced difference of opinion existed among the that, if there was an intention to erect Commissioners, and an account of the pronew public buildings in Downing Street, ceedings of the Commissioners had in conand obtain more ground for public offices, sequence been sent out by him to India, the truest economy would be to purchase with a request that the whole mode of proat once the ground about Charles Street cedure proposed by the Commissioners, as and Duke Street and the shabby buildings well as the penal code, should be submitted immediately adjoining. to the Legislative Council in the form of Acts. With regard to the amalgamation House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to of the Supreme Court and the Sudder

Monday next, Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, May 15, 1857.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Oaths; Medical
Profession (No. 3).

THE RUSSIA COMPANY.

QUESTION:

MR. CLAY asked the Vice President of the Board of Trade whether it was the intention of the Government to bring forward any measure for the abolition of the Russia Company, or affecting any portion of the dues levied by that company?

MR. LOWE replied, that the measure which would be brought forward by the Government did not contemplate the abolition of the Russia Company, but only that of the tolls, amounting to £2,000 a year, levied by that company from shipping in the ports of this country, and applied partly to charitable purposes, and partly to such purposes as the erection of organs at Moscow, and the painting of the Emperor of Russia's portrait.

EAST INDIA (PROVINCIAL TRIBUNALS).

QUESTION.

SIR ERSKINE PERRY inquired of the President of the Board of Control, what are the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the improvement in the administration of justice, and the amalgamation of the courts proposed to Parliament by his predecessor, the present First Lord of the Admiralty?

Court, he believed it would require an Act of the Imperial Parliament, as the amalgamated courts would require Admiralty jurisdiction. It was, moreover, a point on which great contrariety of opinion existed; and he might observe, that the petition which the hon. and learned Gentleman had presented at an earlier period of the evening entertained a different view of the matter from that held by the hon. and learned Gentleman himself. The whole question could be better discussed in India than in this country, and as soon as he should ascertain the opinion which was adopted on the matter in India, he would take care that that opinion should be considered, and, if agreed to, carried into effect with as little delay as possible.

THE WHITWORTHI RIFLE.
QUESTION.

COLONEL SYKES rose to ask the Under Secretary for War whether, as a grave expense is being incurred by the Governments of England and India in the supply of the Enfield rifle, and considering the prospect of its supercession by the superior arm, the Whitworth rifle, it is intended to continue the manufacture of the former; and, in case the Government consider further experiments necessary with the Whitworth rifle before they decide upon its adoption, to state when they will renew those experiments.

SIR JOHN RAMSDEN stated that the superiority of the Whitworth rifle had not yet been sufficiently established to justify the Government in discontinuing the manufacture of the Enfield rifle for the supply of the army. Experiments had been made MR. VERNON SMITH said, that his which were not unfavourable to Mr. Whit

worth's invention; but these experiments | duce any measure upon this subject during were still incomplete. Further experiments the present Session. Since last year the had been ordered, and would take place as Attorney General had applied to the Court soon as arrangements could be made for of Chancery to sanction a new scheme for that purpose. He was informed that if it the regulation of this Hospital, and proshould be found desirable to substitute the ceedings for that purpose were now going Whitworth for the Enfield rifle it would be on very actively, and with every prospect possible, without any great expense, to of a speedy and satisfactory result. alter the machinery now in operation at Enfield so as to render it available for the manufacture of the Whitworth arm.

STADE DUES.

MR. RICARDO inquired of the First Lord of the Treasury, whether the Government intend to continue the Treaty of 1844 with Hanover, respecting the payment of Stade Dues by English ships, or whether they contemplate terminating the treaty by notice, so that the question of the future payment of the Stade Toll may undergo consideration.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that the matter to which the question related was under consideration, and that Her Majesty's Government was about to enter into communication with that of Hanover upon this subject; but at present he was not prepared to state what course the Government would feel it their duty to take.

FIELD ALLOWANCES.

MAJOR KNOX asked the Under Secretary for War, whether he had any objection to lay on the table any correspondence that took place between the Secretary for War and the other authorities at home, and Sir J. Pennefather on the subject of field allowance claimed by the 51st Light Infantry, the Italian Legion, and other troops, stationed at Malta during the late war.

SIR JOHN RAMSDEN replied, that this matter had already been disposed of in strict accordance with the regulations of the War Office, and therefore the Secretary of State for War was not disposed to lay the papers before Parliament.

SHERBURN HOSPITAL-QUESTION. MR. ATHERTON asked Whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring forward any measure during the present Session founded on the Report of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, relative to Sherburn Hospital, in the county of Durham.

MR. BAINES replied that it was not the intention of the Government to intro

THE ROYAL BRITISH BANK-QUESTION.

MR. CONINGHAM asked the Attorney General whether it was the intention of the Government to prosecute the Directors of the Royal British Bank.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have watched the proceedings with respect to the Royal British Bank from their commencement with considerable anxiety; and a long while ago I requested Mr. Linklater, whose great ability, judgment, and perseverance in conducting the examination of the Directors have been so conspicuous, that as soon as the examinations were completed, he would transmit to me copies of them, and such other papers as he deemed requisite for unfolding the affairs, and forming a correct judgment as to the conduct and management of that Bank. Considerable difficulty has, however, been produced by the provisins of the Act 7 and 8 Vict., c. 111, which enacts that, in the case of the Bankruptcy of a Joint-stock Company, the Commissioner shall, after the final examination of the Directors, transmit to the Board of Trade all the papers relating to such failure, to the formation and management of the company, and to the conduct of the Directors and other officers; and that the Board of Trade shall then, if they think proper, lay these papers before the Attorney General, whose duty it shall be to say whether or not a prosecution shall be instituted. That enactment is so worded that the proceeding of the Board of Trade cannot take place till after the final examination of the Directors.

That final examination has not been fixed for an earlier date, I believe, than the 24th of June. I have, however, ventured to think that this particular directory enactment does not supersede the ordinary power and duties of the Attorney General. I have, therefore, desired that the papers shall be transmitted to me by the solicitor of the assignees as soon as they can be completed. The House, however, must be aware that, though the law throws upon the Attorney General a great number of duties, it has provided him with no ma

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