Government adopted with regard to those offers was, he believed, the most prudent course open to them. They referred to the Canadian Executive for advice upon the subject, and the answer they received was, that the colony was at that time engaged in organizing its militia, to which they attached the greatest importance, and they strongly deprecated any endeavour on the part of the Imperial Government to induce the youth of Canada to leave their own country and enter into the service of this country. A proposal had also been made to raise two regiments for the British service, and that proposal had received the utmost consideration. For his own part he believed, that had it been possible it would have been of great advantage if some such scheme had been carried out; but the practical difficulties were so great, and the objections to stripping the colony of men were so strong, that that proposal could not be entertained. He could assure the House that there had been no intention of treating the colony with disrespect, and every one of those gentlemen who had offered to raise corps received the thanks of the Government for the public-spirited and patriotic feeling which had induced them to make that offer, though, from the reasons he had stated, the Government had felt themselves obliged to decline it. With regard to the Cape Colony, the defence of that colony had occupied his serious attention. It was neither wise nor politic to leave the colonists exposed to the frightful evil of a Kafir war, and he believed that, so far from abandoning the principle of teaching the colonists to rely upon themselves, the sending these German colonists, who were trained to arms and able to defend themselves, would tend to inculcate that feeling among them. SIR DE LACY EVANS did not find any Vote with regard to the German settlers in the Navy Estimates, and he objected to a discussion upon military subjects upon going into Committee on those Navy Estimates, although he was glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman intended to revert to the subject on a more fitting occasion. The subject was of too large a nature to be capable of being discussed on the present occasion. In the first place, the question might be raised whether this country should have employed these Germans at all, and then it might be asked why these Germans, who had never seen an enemy or heard a shot fired in anger, should be treated more liberally and gene rously than any portion of those troops who had undergone the danger and labour of the war. The regular troops had been disbanded with very little courtesy, and, in some instances, without much justice, but these foreigners had been enlisted for three years beyond the termination of the war. These Germans now had a claim to permanent protection, and at some future period, when unable to defend themselves, it might be necessary to send British troops to their assistance. There was no doubt that the frontiers of the Cape Colony at the present moment were in very much the condition of the northern border counties of this country some hundred years ago. There would always be cattlestealing under such circumstances; but if they thought to defend the line of frontier by the settlement of a German Legion of 2,800 men, they would be very much mistaken. If the colonists were not able to defend themselves without their assistance, he was sure that they would not be able to do so with their help, and some additional measures would have to be resorted to. The experiment of a military colony at the Cape frontier had been tried twenty years ago and had failed, and yet the same course was being repeated. Ho believed the system was most fallacious. The principle was opposed to the whole spirit of colonial legislation of late years, and he for one could not regard it with favour. The late Sir W. Molesworth had directed his attention very earnestly to the promotion of the policy of giving the power of self-government to our Colonies, and it had over and over again been urged on behalf of the colonists that if that power were accorded to them they would be prepared to defend themselves; and that if that principle were adopted we should not be compelled to keep at the Cape so large a military force as was at present the case. Well, the colonists had now obtained self-government; and when Sir G. Grey had been sent from New Zealand to govern that colony, it was supposed that its affairs would be less expensively managed; but it appeared that a larger military force than ever was needed, dissemination, always an error, had been adopted, and, as a consequence, a greater amount of expense than existed before his appointment had been entailed upon the country. It had been generally believed that Government was about to withdraw a large portion of those troops, but, instead of that having been done, eight or nine regiments of infantry, and a numerous body of cavalry had been kept there to defend the colony against a set of miserable barbarians. One of the arguments which had been used in favour of stationing our troops in large numbers in the colonies was, that the people of this country were opposed to their being quartered at home in any large numbers, and that troops quartered in the Colonies might be easily brought home whenever a great emergency should arise. Well, what had been the fact? Why, that we had not been reinforced by one regiment from the Cape during the last war. It was also stated that it was impossible to defend the colony except by means of the regular army; but it should be borne in mind that Sir George Napier, who had conducted that government for a period of seven years, had adopted against the Kafirs a course, or rather a calculation, not demanding the employment of large bodies of troops. He, in fact, calculated that about £5,000 worth of cattle was reciprocally stolen by the Kafirs from our settlers on the one part, and by our settlers, on the other, from the Kafirs. In short, he calculated that the system of retaliatory theft was far preferable to be allowed to continue rather than recurring to the heavy expenditure of a national war. Other Governors had, however, pursued a different course, and had made the most trifling occurrences the grounds for entering into hostilities. One war had taken place about a stolen hatchet and another about eleven head of cattle. The noble Viscount at the head of the Government, who was so zealous respecting the honour of the British flag, would of course regard this as a casus belli. That was a policy which he had hoped had been abandoned, but it would appear that it was one in which the Government were resolved to persevere, and even proceed further in by sending out a new description of armed force with which to contend with those wretched Kafirs. He could not but sincerely regret such impolicy on the part of the Government. "miserable barbarians," and he was sure he would not have done so if he had known that there were 12,000 of them in the colony who, when armed with rifles, formed the nfaterial of the finest light infantry in the world. During the late war at the Cape our troops, when opposed to them, met with a series of reverses, and he had had the mortification of seeing two of the best regiments in the service compelled to retire before them. The hon. and gallant Member was completely mistaken, therefore, in supposing that the Cape colonists could easily defend themselves against their attacks. They might have done so to some extent when the Kafirs were not supplied with guns, but they were now tolerably well furnished with both guns and horses, and it was plain that the old commando system could no longer be of avail. He felt it to be his duty, under those circumstances, to warn the House to vote money for the defence of the Cape colonists, otherwise they must be prepared to take upon themselves the responsibility of an amount of bloodshed which it was fearful to contemplate. Few persons in England had any idea of the nature of the Kafir tribes. He, however, had some acquaintance with their language; had, after the last war, been much among them, and had conversed with their principal chiefs. From the knowledge of their habits thus acquired, he felt confident that the only reason why hostilities had ceased upon their part was because they had expended all their gunpowder, and because no facilities for the manufacture of a fresh supply existed among them. The best way, therefore, to put a stop to a Kafir war was to prevent the importation of gunpowder from the colonies. Three years was the time usually allowed to elapse between those wars, and we might therefore expect to witness in the course of another year a fresh outbreak of hostilities. The only reason why he was disposed to look with any apprehension upon the presence of the German Legion at the Cape was, that they and the Dutch Boers were to some extent a kindred people, and that as a consequence, MAJOR STUART WORTLEY said, in case those Boers should again take it that, having served three years in the into their heads to rise in opposition to our Cape, two years of which he had been power, they might succeed in seducing the engaged in the late war, he hoped the soldiers of the German Legion from their House would extend to him its indulgence allegiance. The subject was a serious one, while he made a few observations upon the and he hoped the House would not be nigsubject under their notice. He was sur-gardly in any vote for keeping up the supprised to hear the hon. and gallant Mem-ply of troops at the Cape. He was conber who had just spoken call the Kafirs fident that it was only the awe which the Kafirs felt for our troops that kept them | under the old computation they would have quiet, and if that awe were dissipated there been entitled to £52,000. would be another Kafir war, at a cost of several millions of money. COLONEL SYKES observed that there had been no attempt at amalgamation at the Cape of Good Hope, or to infuse good feeling into the breasts of the contending parties. He could not understand why the same system of amalgamation should not be pursued at the Cape as had been pursued in India-namely, that of enlisting under our banners some portion of the native population; and the result of which had been that such a friendly feeling had been infused into those once our enemies that they had become our friends. MR. P. O'BRIEN said, the German Legion had been enlisted under a pledge that they should receive certain pay, and if disbanded before a certain period, be sent out as colonists to Canada or the Cape of Good Hope. It might have been wrong to employ them, but, having done so, the question was really a narrow question of contract. If the sending them to the Cape were such an immense advantage as the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster (Sir De Lacy Evans) represented, how was it that out of 10,000 men only 2,000 had accepted the boon? Motion agreed to. SUPPLY-COMMITTEE. (1.) £40,000, Marriage Portion of The Princess Royal, agreed to. (2.) £46,772, Naval Miscellaneous Services. SIR JOHN TRELAWNY asked a question as to the votes of "blood money" for pirates killed by our sailors. It was a dangerous power to entrust any naval officer with the arbitrary power of putting men to death as pirates. It was a relie of barbarous times, and unworthy of a Christian country. SI CHARLES WOOD said, that some time since a new mode of computing the head money had been introduced. The first item in this Vote was to the Rattler and Tartar, for service in 1855. There were 1,750 pirates engaged, of whom 500 were killed and 70 taken prisoners. Under the old rule the officers and crews would have been entitled to £10,000, but under the new rule they only got £3,000. The officers and crew of the Rattler, for service from 1854 to 1856, got £10,000; SIR JOHN TRELAWNY objected to the principle of the Vote; it was placing too much power in the hands of an officer. The natives whom they attacked might be engaged in legitimate warfare, and it was a disgrace to a Christian country to give blood money in this manner. GENERAL THOMPSON did not believe in pirates. He desired to know what was the proof that these were pirates. Were they the great pirates or the little pirates? We being the great pirates avowedly bearing in the China seas no other character than an organised race of pirates-was it quite clear that the men who interfered with us were not Custom-house officers? Or might they not have been some of the collections of men who had made their appearance in China in consequence of political agitation, and who wished to proclaim themselves as Bible Christians, though Her Majesty's representative put them aside as not being first-chop Unitarians? We had seen in China the strongest examples of every violation of truth, falsehoods thick as hail, and conduct which would prove to posterity that what had begun with a violation of principle and honour, would in the end come back on the offenders. MR. VANSITTART having had a gallant relative in command of one of the ships could assure the House that whatever doubt there might be here as to the existence, the numbers, or the destruction of the pirates, there was none amongst the Chinese themselves, as was testified by the gratitude evinced by them. His gallant relative had been offered by the native merchants at Shanghai and elsewhere five times the value of the sum in question, and he had refused it because he thought it was not consistent with his duty to accept money except from the Admiralty. MR. AYRTON believed that this payment was made under an Act of Parliament, and it would be inconsistent in the House to refuse to vote the money to which the Officers thought themselves entitled. At the same time, the Act of Parliament under which this money was voted required re-consideration. It was entirely inconsistent with the honour of this country and of its navy that sums of money should thus be voted for one of those services for which the navy was maintained. When the House voted £7,000,000 for the navy in time of peace, it was not too much to expect that it would in return render the service of suppressing piracy in the Eastern seas. It must be very embarrassing to a naval officer to receive money according to the number of men he had killed. SIR JOHN TRELAWNY believed that it was in the discretion of the Admiralty to give the money or not, and that the Act of Parliament was not imperative. The Admiralty sometimes withheld the money. SIR CHARLES WOOD: It was not imperative upon the Admiralty to give this money when they did not think it was deserved. It was not quite fair, however, to raise the question of the desirableness of repealing the Act of Parliament upon the Vote to these officers. and other private yards for the navy, nine ships of the line, nine frigates, eighteen sloops and corvettes, 182 gun-vessels and gun-boats, nine floating batteries, and 104 mortar vessels and gun-boats. MR. AYRTON complained of the item of £1,500, included in the miscellaneous services, for per centage paid to the Bank of England for transmission of money to the naval accountants at Portsmouth, Devonport, and Pembroke, to meet the payments at those stations for the naval department. He thought, considering that the country kept an average balance at its bankers of between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000, it ought not to be charged anything like £1,500 for such accommodation. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, the men employed in the yards at Portsmouth, MR. STAFFORD was glad to see that Devonport, and Pembroke, were all paid the Admiralty had doubled the Vote for in gold and silver, which rendered it always the Sailors' Homes. He was anxious to necessary to have a large supply of coin know whether the Admiralty had increased on the spot, and that was unavoidably the number of Sailors' Homes, and whe-attended with considerable expense. ther they had instituted any superintend- MR. CONINGHAM said, as they were ence over them, or, still better, left them now, as it were, auditing the national acto the management of the benevolent in-counts, he wished to ask for information dividuals, by whom they were instituted. upon a point connected with the mode of SIR GEORGE B. PECHELL believed that the Admiralty had a discretionary power in regard to the payments for pirates. He entirely sympathized in the objections taken by the late Mr. Hume to these payments. SIR CHARLES WOOD wished to remind his hon. and gallant Friend of the captain who gave evidence before a Select Committee denying the existence of these pirates, and who was afterwards murdered by them. He trusted that his hon. and gallant Friend would never meet with a similar fate. With regard to Sailors' Homes, the Government only contributed towards those at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Quenstown, but they had increased their contributions to all those institutions. The Government did not interfere with the management, except to aid them with their pecuniary support. No institutions could be better managed, and none could be more serviceable to the sailors. Here they found a comfortable home, with cheap board and lodging, and books and newspapers. In reply to a question put by Admiral DUNCOMBE, SIR CHARLES WOOD stated that during the last three years there had been launched from her Majesty's dockyards presenting the Navy Estimates before the Committee. The Votes for the financial year 1856-7 were stated in the Estimates, and the Committee was now asked to Vote the supplies for the financial year 1857-8; but the Estimates did not show what had been the expenditure for the year 1856-7. He submitted there ought to have been a column showing the balance in hand, if any, at the end of the previous year, and that until that was supplied the Committee had no means of testing the accuracy of the statements in the Estimates. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, the hon. Gentleman was probably not aware that whenever the full amount of a Vote of the previous year was not expended the balance was either paid over to the Exchequer at the end of the year or was not drawn out of it, and that every year there was what was called a finance account prepared, showing the sums not expended in the service of the year in every case where the actual expenditure did not come up to the amounts voted. MR. PALK asked what the per-centage paid to the Bank was? SIR CHARLES WOOD stated that the percentage paid to the Bank of England for the transmission of money to the Naval Accountants at Portsmouth, Devonport, and Pembroke was in the case of Ports- was payable to each officer, but a deducmouth, 2s., and as respected the remaining tion was made for income tax, and that two places, 4s. reduction was carried to the credit of the Vote agreed to. Exchequer. (3.) £441,603, Half-pay and Retired Allowances. Vote agreed to, as were also the two following Votes: (4.) £278,163, Military Pensions and Allowances. (5.) £87,682, Civil Pensions and Allowances. SIR GEORGE PECHELL asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any decision had been arrived at as to the allowance of half-pay to the captains, commanders, lieutenants, and masters who (6.) £127,000, Conveyance of Troops. were connected with Greenwich Hospital. MR. STAFFORD wished to know wheThe governor, the lieutenant governor, and ther they were to understand that this some of the Commissioners of that Hos-Vote was deemed sufficient by the Governpital received half-pay in addition to their official incomes, and he did not see why the same principle should not be extended to the subordinate officers of the establishment. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he could only repeat the answer he had given to a question which had been put to him upon, this subject on a previous evening-that the case of these officers was still under the consideration of the Treasury. ment to meet the charges connected with their extensive operations in the East, or whether an application was to be made by them for a supplementary Vote? If this sum was all that they would require, he must congratulate the Government on their skill in making so small a sum go so far. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, this Estimate was framed in the month of January, before a complete account of the operations in China had been received. Since that SIR WILLIAM CODRINGTON thought date it had been found necessary to send the position of the inferior officers of Green-out a much larger force; and as soon as wich Hospital was, in this respect, one of the Government were enabled to make up considerable hardship. The Governor of their minds as to the full extent of the the Hospital, Sir James Gordon, who had exigency, they would lay on the table a a salary of £1,500 a year, received half-supplementary Estimate to meet it. pay amounting to £760 a year. The MR. STAFFORD inquired how soon Lieutenant Governor also received half- that would be done? pay in addition to his official salary; but the captains, commanders, lieutenants, and masters were precluded from receiving half-pay. ADMIRAL WALCOTT said, that unless the Treasury decided upon allowing the subordinate officers of Greenwich Hospital to receive their half-pay, he would take an opportunity of bringing the subject under the consideration of the House. He found that in the Estimates the full half-pay of officers of every rank was entered, while when those officers received their half-pay the amount of the income tax was deducted. He wished to know in what manner the country was credited with these deductions for income tax. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the country was credited with those deductions in the same manner as it was credited with the deductions of income tax from official salaries and from dividends. ADMIRAL WALCOTT wished to know why the full amount of half-pay was inIcluded in the Estimates. SIR CHARLES WOOD replied, because the full amount stated in the Estimates VOL. CXLV. [THIRD SERIES.] SIR CHARLES WOOD replied, that that would depend, in some degree, on the next accounts which reached this country from China. It would be more satisfactory if they deferred their calculations until they could submit an Estimate that was likely to be final. SIR CHARLES NAPIER thought the Estimates too low, even if we were not at war with China. There might be a breach between this country and France, and looking at the preparations made by the latter Power, it was imprudent for us to maintain so small a force. Cherbourg was only fifty or sixty miles distant from England, and was a perfect naval citadel. There were there already four steam basins, and there would be another completed in 1858. The railways could bring troops from all parts of France to that harbour. Any number of vessels might there come alongside and load. Troops in divisions and brigades could embark with the greatest ease; nay, as not even boats were required, cavalry regiments could march on board. The First Lord of the Admiralty had told them the other 2 C |