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shown them that it was a dangerous trade | while America had. Brazil exported agrifor Brazil. But what motive could there cultural produce to America, which could be more potent than self-interest? Then supply her with manufactured goods as the noble Lord warned the House that cheaply as we could; therefore, if we there were people in Brazil who were induced the Brazilians to prefer an Amefriends to the slave trade; but did the no- rican alliance to ours, we should lose our ble Lord believe that there were no people trade with their country, and the Ameriin England who were friends to the slave cans would get it. He only asked for trade? Let him not lay "that flattering an inquiry, and he was quite sure that unction to his soul." There were people, that would lead to no mischief. The hon. in truth, who would trade not only in the Member for Pontefract (Mr. M. Milnes) bodies of blacks, but in their own souls said, that he had a policy in view. He ay, in England, too-in virtuous England. had not. What he wanted to come to was It was his sincere belief that the real pro- the truth; and he asked whether the House moters of the slave trade might be found was in a condition to say to any one who within the three kingdoms called the United made out such a case as he had done, Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. You shall not inquire. We have such It was maintained in spite of our cruisers, confidence in the noble Lord"-for there and it was put down in Brazil, not by the it lay-"we have such confidence in the noble Lord's laws, but by the will of the noble Lord that we put all the foreign inBrazilians themselves. All that our Acts terests of England into his hands, and will of Parliament had done was to sow dis- not inquire.' Shame on the House of sension between us and the Brazilians, and Commons that would say so! They might to encourage our diplomatists to insult the have confidence in the noble Lord. He Brazilian Government. Had any one writ- | (Mr. Roebuck) had no doubt that he had ten to the noble Lord such a letter as Mr. confidence in himself, but they might deJerningham wrote to the Brazilian Minis-pend upon it that they could not injure the ter, how he would have declaimed in that interests of England by inquiring. All he House on the insulted honour and dignity sought was the appointment of a Commitof England, and called upon the country tee which might obtain evidence, and upon to avenge the insult. The noble Lord that evidence he would ask the House to charged him with appealing to the vulgar decide this question. prejudice that it was our policy "to bully the weak and truckle to the strong;' but was not this the case? Where was the slave trade most flourishing now? In Cuba. And why did not the noble Lord put it down there? Simply because he dared not. Because the French Emperor would not allow him. The noble Lord talked of vulgar prejudice; but had the noble Lord answered the charge he had brought against him of using the power of England to aid and assist the strong and bully the weak. The weak were the people of Brazil-the strong the people of America. Dared they send a cruiser into the Chesapeak? They dared not. America would be in arms, and the noble Lord would go to the Minister of the Republic and humbly beg his pardon that he had presumed to interfere with the inviolability of her flag. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bramley-Moore) had corrected him as to our exports to Brazil; but he believed that if he referred to documents he would find that our trade amounted to nearly £12,000,000 per annum. Now, there was this difference between Brazil and America, that Brazil had no manufactures,

MR. DISRAELI: I was about to speak when the hon. and learned Gentleman rose to reply, and I therefore hope he will excuse my making one or two observations in explanations of the vote I am about to give. This Motion is certainly rather a strong one. Had the hon. and learned Gentleman moved for papers, or had he made some Motion which would have brought more information before the House before he asked it to pronounce an opinion, I should not have taken the course which I now personally feel it my duty to pursue. A Motion, however, which by its language takes the management of our diplomatic relations with Brazil out of the hands of the Government and submits them to the consideration of the House of Commons, has, so long as I have had a seat in the House, been regarded as a Motion which implies a want of confidence in the Government of the day. I have listened with great interest to the remarks of the hon. and learned Gentleman, though, owing to an unfortunate circumstance I lost some of his observations, but I did not understand that he recommended his Motion by any particular instance which

has recently occurred, or that he repre- given to the slave trade by the Brazilian sented that any complaint had been made authorities and the Brazilian people are at by the Brazilian Government with respect the present moment without any foundato the Act which has been so frequently tion whatever in fact. I quite agree with referred to. Indeed, I understood from my hon. Friend (Mr. B. Moore) that it is the noble Lord that that Act, of the opera- owing, not to the interference of the British tion of which the hon. and learned Gentle- Government or to the activity of our man complains, is at this moment sus- cruisers, but to the policy of the Brazilian pended by an agreement between the two Government and the feeling of the Bracountries. Really under the circumstances zilian people, that the slave trade in Brazil I cannot support the Motion of the hon. has become almost extinct. For twenty and learned Gentleman. If the Act of years the policy at all times so earnestly which he complains be at this moment in recommended by the noble Lord was visuspense, it must be in consequence of gorously pursued, and at the end of that some previous discussion between the two time the number of slaves imported into Governments, and if it remains suspended Brazil was as great as at its commencewe have a right to infer that these dis- ment. Therefore the utmost energy in cussions will be renewed, and that there carrying out the policy of the noble Lord will be some hope of a satisfactory and produced no effect whatever. What, then, amicable settlemeut of this question. Un- had produced the desirable result that the der these circumstances, and after that slave trade with Brazil was nearly extinct? declaration from the Minister, I do not What but a change in the opinions of the feel justified in supporting a Motion of Brazilian population and community, and so strong a character as that before the the creation of a conviction that it is I am, however, quite of opinion rather by encouraging emigration, by dethat the subject which the hon. and learned veloping the interior resources of their Gentleman has introduced to us is one country, and by pursuing that enlightened that ought to interest the House; and, I policy which the present Emperor of Brazil think, we are much indebted to him for has at all times supported and patronized, bringing it forward, because our relations that the wealth and the power of their with Brazil are of great importance, and country will be best secured, rather than have for some time been involved in very by recurring to that system for which undesirable obscurity. I do not know how Brazil was once so notorious? If this be many years it is since we first heard of an true, I think the time has come when a impending treaty of commerce with that spirit of the utmost conciliation and courcountry, from which the greatest advan- tesy should be exhibited by the English tages were to result. I have myself had Government towards that of Brazil. the honour of bringing that, together with time has come when it would be well for other proposed treaties of commerce, under the noble Lord to consider whether this the notice of the House; but on such occa- Act, which is now by mutual consent sussions I have never received much encou- pended, may not be altogether abrogated, ragement from those who possess extreme so that there may be no misunderstanding opinions with regard to commercial ex- on the part of the Brazilian Government change. I have generally been told that as to the temper of the Government and treaties of commerce are very old-fashioned people of England; but that the authoinventions, and are by no means so desira- rities of the Brazils may know that their ble as our forefathers used to consider exertions for the amelioration of society in them. Our trade with Brazil is, however, their own country are appreciated and rea very important branch of our commerce, spected, and that the stories which were and is one from the increase of which the basis and data of earnest, but perhaps great advantages may be expected to re- in some degree passionate, legislation, are sult, not only to this country, but to the now no longer credited as characteristic of Brazilians themselves. Let us see what their land. The speech and Motion of the has been the conduct of the rulers and hon. and learned Gentleman have had this people of Brazil since that treaty of com- advantage-that they have introduced to merce was first noticed in this House and the House of Commons in its first Session promised as a possible result of our diplo- a subject of the greatest interest and immatic relations. Why, there is no doubt portance, and that they will give a proper that all the statements which were made tone to the manner in which we shall heresome years ago as to the encouragement after discuss our relations with the Bra

The

their attention to the sea-coast, but should go into the waters of Brazil, and take any slavers which they found there. That order was productive of such good effect that the Brazilian Government at last thought it necessary to pass an Act to put an end to the slave trade, which was then found to be a losing concern by all those who were concerned in it. Many of the slave masters, who had previously been deriving large profits from the trade, finding that their losses were so very great in consequence of the close proximity of our cruisers, felt convinced-and indeed so confessed to the diplomatic agents of different parts of Europe-that they could not continue it any longer. Now, I believe that that is a correct statement of the facts; and, being so, I am desirous to leave this question in the hands of my noble Friend and the Government. I believe generally that all questions connected with our foreign affairs ought to be left in the hands of the Government, without any interference on the part of this House. I believe that the present question particularly, owing to the diplomacy of this country and the vigilance of our cruisers, has been conducted most suc

zilian Government. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman-though I cannot suppose that he will be influenced by any wish that I may express-will not ask the House to divide upon this particular Motion, which is, I think, too strong for the occasion. If he will be satisfied with having induced an interested discussion upon an important subject, and having elicited from a large majority of this House the feeling that the Brazilian Government and people ought to be respected, and that our Government should treat them in accordance with this sentiment, he will have achieved a very great result, and one with which he may well rest content. I trust that he will be contented with that, and will not ask the House to come to a division which will not convey to the country an accurate idea of the sentiments of the House of Commons. LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Were it not for an assertion made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, which, according to my view, is likely to lead to a misunderstanding of this question, and create a false impression on the House, I should not have thought it necessary to say a word upon this subject. The right hon.cessfully, and therefore it is the more befitGentleman the Member for Buckingham- ting the House not to interfere with it by shire said that the instructions given by the appointment of such a Committee as my noble Friend at the head of the Go- has been proposed. If the hon. and learnvernment, when Minister for Foreign Af- ed Gentleman had brought forward a Mofairs, were that our cruisers should go into tion by which the slave trade of Cuba the waters of Brazil; that, notwithstanding might be suppressed-if he could suggest the slave trade in Brazil had increased, and any measure having that object in view, I no check had been put upon it by the vigi- do not believe that the Government would lance of our cruisers, and by the orders be found to be so much afraid of the powerunder which they had previously acted-ful monarchy of Spain as to be deterred that Brazil herself, from her own views of policy, had undertaken this question herself, and had put an end to her own slave trade. Well, if that be a correct interpretation of the facts, the consequent inference would be that, our efforts having failed, and Brazil having performed this voluntary act herself, it would be but reasonable for us to repeal the Act of Parliament which has been so much in question. But I maintain that that is not a correct representation of the facts. My impression of the matter is this-that, for some time our efforts, energetic as they were, having failed to produce the desired effect upon Brazil, in respect to her slave trade, that trade having increased notwithstanding the vigilance of our cruisers, and the orders of the Foreign Office, instructions were at length issued by my noble Friend, that our cruisers should not confine

from supporting it; and I only hope that, when the hon. and learned Gentleman again touches this subject, he will show us how the slave trade of Cuba can be effectually suppressed, and how the slave trade altogether can be put an end to.

Motion made, and Question put, "That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the relations of this Country with Brazil."

The House divided :-Ayes 17; Noes 312: Majority 295.

BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.
COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.

SIR CHARLES NAPIER, in rising to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the constitution of the Board of Admiralty, said that he should probably be thought unwise and imprudent in bringing forward his Motion. The First and Se

cond Lords had usually seats in that House. | appointed First Lord of the Admiralty, There were also an ex-First Lord in the and Sir John Pechell also became one of House, three ex-Secretaries, and four or the naval Lords. He was an excellent five lay Lords. Still, notwithstanding officer, and he knew the defects of the these odds against him, he felt it to be his system. He (Sir C. Napier) addressed a duty to endeavour to persuade the House, letter at that time to Sir John Pechell, if they wished to avoid some serious dis- complaining of the manner in which the aster, to agree to his Motion. The general affairs of the Admiralty had been managed, opinion of the navy was in favour of his pointing out the defects, and urging cerMotion. There was hardly a naval officer tain alterations for the improvement of that with whom he conversed, or a commander department. Shortly afterwards the right in chief at one of the ports, or a super- hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle intendent of the dockyards, who did not brought in a Bill to improve the construcagree that the constitution of the Admi- tion of the Board of Admiralty. Whether ralty might be improved. He had also the right hon. Baronet had any communiheld conversations with clerks of the Ad- cation with Sir John Pechell on the submiralty and of Somerset House, and he ject of his (Sir C. Napier's) communicabelieved that if they were polled they tion to the latter, he could not say, but also would agree that the navy was not go- that right hon. Baronet in his Bill proposed verned as it ought to be. It was, perhaps, the formation of the Board of Admiralty necessary that he should explain to new nearly in the way he (Sir C. Napier) had Members the composition of the present suggested; but he did not carry out his Board of the Admiralty. In former days, alterations sufficiently far. The Board in the reign of Edward VI., the navy was was now composed of the First Lord, four governed by a Lord High Admiral and a Naval Lords, and one Civil Lord. It was Vice Admiral of England, a Controller, Sir J. Graham's intention that the Civil Surveyor, and Clerk of the Acts. This Lord should live in Somerset House, and administration was continued until the take charge of the duties of the Accountant reign of James II., who was himself Lord General, being responsible for signing all High Admiral and Lord General of the papers relative to expenditure; that one of Navy. The navy was then managed by the Lords should superintend the medical the well-known Samuel Pepys. In the and victualling department; another should reign of William III. the navy was go- have jurisdiction of the dockyards, &c.; a verned by a board. Queen Anne made third should superintend the management Prince George of Denmark Lord High of the packet service, &c. In fact, each Admiral of England, assisted by a counsel officer of the board was to have the diof four, one of whom was Vice Admiral rection of a separate and distinct deof England. After him the Earl of Pem- partment. Now, all that looked very well, broke became Lord High Admiral with on paper; but the arrangement, however, a Council. The navy after that time re- had not been carried out. Different Lords mained in commission until the Duke of worked in separate rooms, and there being Clarence, afterwards William IV., was no concert between them the most contramade Lord High Admiral. For seventeen dictory orders were frequently issued. He or eighteen years previous to that time the himself knew of six orders having been isnavy had been ruled by Lord Melville, and sued about the same time by the members during the whole of that time nothing had of the Board, all contradicting each other. been done to promote its interests, or to do Sir G: Cockburn, who had had eighteen away with the shameful system of impress- years' experience both of the old and new ment. He remembered that in 1815 a systems, had expressed opinions on the cornet of dragoons was appointed a Lord subject which well deserved the attention of the Admiralty, and Sir G. Cockburn, of the House. He said, he had no hesiwho was at the Admiralty when this ap- tation in stating that the constitution of pointment was complained of, stated to the the Board was most unsatisfactory; first, House of Commons that the First Lord of in the power given to one man to issue the Admiralty had very little time to at- orders in the name, and with the authotend to the affairs of the navy, which were rity of the Board. It was true the prinleft almost entirely to the senior naval cipal ought to be able to give all orders; Lord. This state of things continued until but, as matters stood, there was no reafter the Reform Bill, when the right hon. sponsibility upon the party issuing the Gentleman the Member for Carlisle was order, the Board being alone responsible.

With regard to the constitution of the his name to heaps of papers which it was Board, he must say that common sense impossible he could read. He (Sir C. suggested that the person who presided at Napier) had seen himself instances wherein it should thoroughly understand the duties a Lord of the Admiralty signed a document of his department; but he seldom did under- which he had never read at the request of stand them. Then, again, the Board con- a clerk. That was the way in which the sisted of six members, the first and junior business of the Admiralty was done. He Lords, civilians, and four naval Lords, all act- (Sir C. Napier) knew the working of the ing one without the knowledge of the other: system from having himself commanded much valuable time was lost by such a sys- two fleets; and he had constantly received tem in the explanations that constantly be- contradictory orders. A private order was came necessary to be made, and a continual once sent to him by Lord Auckland to state of anxiety, difficulty, and jealousy re- take the upper-deck guns out of the St. sulted as a consequence. Those were the Vincent, and see how she answered; and opinions of Sir George Cockburn; and here when he had obeyed this mandate, another he (Sir C. Napier) must say, that Sir George order came out by the next mail, from the Cockburn was greatly to blame for not senior Naval Lord, expressing surprise at bringing forward his reforms much sooner what he had done, and directing him to than he did; but at his death he left the put the upper-deck guns in again immedocuments above referred to as a legacy to diately. Considerable difference of opinion his country and to the Board of Admiralty. existed as to the qualities of the Queen, It was said that the Board was a respon- and he (Sir C. Napier) was directed to sible body; but he would show, out of the take out the squadron to try her. He mouth of a First Lord, what was the took her to sea for an experiment, but fact. In his examination before the Sebas- by the next mail he received a letter from topol Committee, the right hon. Baronet another Lord directing him to send home (Sir J. Graham) stated that he had con- the Queen immediately. After that, by the sulted Lord Spencer, who was once First following mail, he received another letter, Lord of the Admiralty, as to the proper reproving him for sending home that vesmode of conducting the business of this sel, and expressing regret that she had department; and that Lord Spencer told not been tried. Shortly after, he receivhim that when his fellow members of the ed a private note from Admiral Dundas, Board refused to sign his orders, he used saying, "All the clerks are gone, take to throw the papers on the table and this as an order, and send the Queen threaten, if they were not signed before he to Malta directly." The explanation of left the room, to go to Mr. Pitt and have those contradictory letters was that, after all his colleagues turned out. Thus every the Admiralty ordered the ship to be tried, man sat at the Board with a rope round his somebody in the interest of Sir W. Seyneck, and it was in the power of the First mour, who did not wish the trial to take Lord to dismiss the whole Admiralty if he place, got an order from some Lords of the liked. As to turning out, he (Sir Charles Admiralty to have her sent home at once, Napier) might also state to the House that and then, when that order had been obeyed, Sir George Cockburn actually turned the a show of regret was made that no trial late William IV. out of the office of Lord had been made. He could state another High Admiral, for an act of irregularity case, while he was in command of the committed by him in his office. Sir Baltic fleet. He one day received a letter George Cockburn represented the matter from the Admiralty directing him to proto the Duke of Wellington, then at the ceed to Wingo Sound, and soon after he head of the Government, and the Lord received another directing him to open the High Admiral was removed from his orders which had been enclosed in a previpost. What was the reason that a sin-ous letter. He did so, and found that the gle Lord was able to usurp the autho-orders were from the Secretary of State, rity of the entire Board, and his orders pointing out what he was to do. In that were often signed by a colleague without reading them? They had not been told why Mr. Phinn had lately given up the office of Secretary to the Admiralty, but he (Sir C. Napier) supposed that that Gentleman could not conscientiously receive £1,500 a year for simply signing

case he obeyed the orders of the Secretary of State, because he was the highest authority, and also because his orders were the wisest. He accordingly proceeded to Kioje Bay, in order to prevent the junction of the Russian with the Swedish and Danish fleets, a contingency which might