they existed in a country where, on account | the Government was not, at the time, preof the Corn Laws, a great quantity of la-pared to bring forward. He had another bour was necessary to get a small quantity of food.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM BILL FOR ENGLAND-COMMITTEE FIFTH DAY.] Lord John Russell moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into Committee on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill.

into all the reports of the different Com- | the non-production of the estimates up to mittees, and had examined the mass of the present time was any thing but a evidence that had been laid before the satisfactory one. He apprehended the House on the subject, with a view to see cause of the delay was, that Ministers whether, from that evidence, and from were fully engaged with their Reform Bill; the reports of the Committees, any thing but the finances of the country in their could be collected so definite and clear as to present deranged state, when there was an point out the proper mode of proceeding actual deficiency of revenue ought surely on this subject, or to lay a distinct founda- to have engaged their attention. tion for any measure with regard to it. He must be allowed to say, that the general question of the Poor-laws was a subject of such great magnitude, and involved such a variety of important considerations, that any Member of the Government, or of that House, would not be justified in bringing forward a measure that would Mr. Davies Gilbert would take that opapply generally to the whole collective portunity to say, that he was not by any system of the Poor-laws of this country. means opposed to all Reform, though he The proper and the better course would certainly could not approve of the extent be, to bring forward some measure that to which the present Bill went. He would should apply to the amendment of such recommend, however, to the opponents of parts of the Poor-laws as clearly required the Bill no longer to oppose the principle amendment and alteration. He must of it, but to seek to amend its details. It observe, that all the evidence which had appeared to him that the great object of been taken before the different Commit- the Bill should be to extend the franchise, tees on this subject had been derived from as far as possible, to all persons of intelligentlemen who came before those Com-gence and property, so as to combine them mittees with preconceived opinions on the against the friends of anarchy and consubject, and who seemed to want a know- fusion. He thought that the 107. houseledge of the working of the different sys-holders' clause, as it now stood, would tems that prevailed in different parts of the give the franchise to persons of no procountry. Such a knowledge as that was perty, and who were not entitled to it. In absolutely necessary before they would be London, and in other large towns, he unjustified in bringing forward any measure derstood that houses of that description for the amendment of any portion of the were in the possession of a very low and law which might clearly require considera-poor description of persons, who made their tion, but with regard to which any mis-livelihood by letting them out in lodgings. take might be productive of much evil. Under such circumstances, his Majesty's Government was of opinion, that the best course to pursue was, by means of investigation and inquiry on the spot, to find out the effects of the different systems as they existed in different parishes throughout the country; and accordingly commissioners were to be appointed for the purpose of ascertaining how the different systems worked in different parishes throughout the kingdom. That was the state in which the question at present stood. It did not appear that this comparative inquiry as to those different systems would take up much time, and when the result of it was before Ministers, they would then be able to determine whether they could propose any measure on the subject.

Sir Richard Vyvyan was of opinion that the reason assigned by the noble Lord for

He would, therefore, when they came to that clause, propose, as an amendment, that in London and other large towns, they should deduct from the value of houses rated at 107. whatever the propr etors of them derived from occupancy, so as to exclude the tenants of mere low lodginghouses from the elective franchise.

Lord John Russell said, that any suggestion coming from the hon. Gentleman should meet with every attention from him in the Committee, though he was ready to admit that at present he could not see how this amendment could be applied to the clause in question, or if it were so applied, what good it would effect. He had himself two alterations to propose in Committee, which were-1st, that as the occupier of a warehouse in Leeds, though resident in London, might vote for that town as the Bill at present stood, it was

deemed right to put such occupiers on the footing of freemen, and therefore he should propose that, to entitle them to vote, they must reside within seven-miles from the town, in respect to occupancy, in which they were to vote. The other amendment was, that as frecholders for life were not to be allowed to vote in right of any such freehold when of less value than 107. a-year, and as the counties of cities had been assimilated to other counties in certain respects, he should move the insertion of words to give equal rights to the voters of all counties of cities.

Sir Robert Peel said, that as the noble Lord had now stated it to be the intention of Ministers to limit the right of the proprietors of warehouses to vote for any particular place to such only as were resident within seven miles of the spot, he begged to suggest to the noble Lord the propriety of limiting, in the like manner, the right of another class of voters. He alluded to the fictitious annuitant freeholders, who were created for electioneering purposes in many counties of cities and towns. It was highly expedient, he thought, that none of this class of voters should be allowed to exercise the elective | franchise, except such as were resident within seven miles. He knew of one place in which twenty freeholders had been created out of a freehold of seven acres. Lord John Russell: it is the intention of Ministers to require that the class of voters to whom the right hon. Baronet has alluded should be resident within seven miles.

The House in Committee.

and which in the whole contained only 270,000 inhabitants, would have the right of returning five Members to Parliament. He confessed that he still felt many of the objections which he had urged when the clause was last under their consideration, but at the present moment he was willing to waive them because, the Isle of Wight wasto lose four of its borough Representatives, and it was not unreasonable to let it have one county Member in return. The question, however, would require to be more fully considered hereafter, because he could not make up his mind to the inconsistency of giving five Members to such a county as Hampshire, and a less number to other counties of infinitely greater size and importance.

Sir Charles Wetherell said, as the Isle of Wight was still an integral part of the county of Hants, he thought the clause ought to be postponed until the whole case of the county came before them.

Lord Althorp saw no necessity to postpone the clause, as there appeared no objection to the Isle of Wight having a Member.

Sir Thomas Buring trusted hon. Gentlemen would recollect that the Isle of Wight lost four borough Members by the operation of the Bill, he, therefore, thought it but reasonable that it should have one county Member in return.

Mr. Stuart Wortley said, the hon. Báronet seemed to think that, because Hampshire was to lose borough Members, it was but fair to give that county au accession, of Knights of the Shire in their place. If that principle was fair with regard to the county of Hants, he hoped that there would be no objection to apply it to other places.

Lord John Russell said, it was natural for bon. Members connected with the county to put forward the loss of borough Members as a reason for an increase of

The Chairman then read the first part of the 16th clause as follows, viz :-" And be it enacted that the Isle of Wight in the county of Southampton, shall, for the purposes of this Act, be a county of itself, separate and apart from the county of Southampton and shall return Knights of the Shire in every future Par-county Members, but the hon. Member liament." It was proposed that the blank -should be filled up with the word "one," by which it is proposed that the Isle of Wight should be considered for the purposes of this Bill, as a separate county, and should have the right of returning one Member. Mr. Croker said, that, in the Committee on the former Bill, he had strongly objected to the addition of this Member to the Isle of Wight, upon the ground that, by other provisions of the Bill, the county of Hants, to which the island belonged,

knew that the Ministers did not assign that as a reason for proposing to give the Isle of Wight a separate Member. The case had been most fully discussed last Session, and there was no necessity now to repeat all the arguments in its favour.

Sir Charles Wetherell said, he had not yet discovered why the Isle of Wight was to have a Member, except that it was said to be an island; he, therefore, hoped it would be allowed to float in the opon sea of the Bill until they had heard, as they

possibly might when the county clause came under discussion, some reason why Hampshire ought to have five Members. Clause agreed to.

Clause seventeen postponed.

Sir Richard Vyvyan said, it was a frequent practice in some parts of the West of England to grant landed property for three lives. This conferred a vote under the existing law and he thought the practice should be continued, but with respect to the principles involved in the Lord John Russell proposed to insert as amendment which went to exclude fican amendment the words" or in any elec-titious voters introduced to overwhelm the tion for any city or town, being a county of itself."

The first part of the 18th Clause having been read,

real constituency of counties, it had his most cordial approbation.

Lord Althorp admitted the hardship of the case described by his noble friend, but he apprehended if any exception was made to meet his noble friend's view, the door would be open to fraud, though the number of freeholders to which the exception would apply was but few. If the words "or unless such estate for life be created by devise or settlement," were introduced he would make no objection to them. He was aware, however, that the clause then before them was one of the most difficult in the whole Bill to draw up satisfactorily, and he felt apprehensive that words suddenly suggested might if adopted interfere with other parts of the Bill.

Mr. O'Connell doubted if the words suggested by the noble Lord would answer the purpose of excluding fictitious freeholders only, but he thought that object might be attained if the clause was drawn

Lord Milton said, if the House agreed to the clause as it stood the smaller proprietors would look upon the House as not considering their rights so much as those of wealthier persons. If a man with 10,000l. a-year, which he had only for life, had a vote, he saw no reason why smaller proprietors should be excluded. The clause did not meet the case made out last Session by the hon. member for Bodmin (Mr. Davies Gilbert). He complained, and justly, that it was a frequent practice for large proprietors to make grants of freeholds to particular individuals without making them freeholds of inheritance. However desirous a person might be to possess influence in county elections in order to obtain it, he would never go so far as to grant freeholds in fee without a valuable consideration. The fictitious freeholds were usually granted to aged individuals, and soon returned to the grantor. But if such votes were object-up so as to give a vote to the tenant for ionable, and no doubt they were, there were no more desireable voters than small proprietors. This clause operated against such persons, as would appear by stating the following case: Suppose a person acquired by industry a cottage with a small portion of land worth perhaps, 61. or 71. a-year, and at his decease he willed it to a son for Sir Charles Wetherell observed, that in life, with the remainder to a grandson. In his opinion the working of the clause might such a case the son would be excluded be improved; he was, therefore, obliged to from voting, and by such an operation one the noble Lord for his suggestion, and of the inducements to industry was closed thought it would add to the advantage of up, and many persons might be deprived the measure if it was adopted according to of the pleasure of founding a family. He the clause as it now stood. Life interest saw no reason why the humbler classes of was not to confer a vote unless it was society should be prevented from doing that equal to 107. value, and it was the object of which they themselves were most desirous the noble Lord (Milton) to give a vote to to do. He trusted, therefore, that his the holder of a property under that value, noble friend would make such an altera-if he held under a settlement, a devise or in tion of the clause as would permit persons any other way which prevented him from in the situation he had described from being a fabricated freeholder. He agreed being confounded with the fictitious voters with the noble Lord in thinking that bond which it was the object of the hon. mem-fide small freeholders for life ought by no ber for Bodmin's amendment to exclude from voting.

life, where the remainder was in the first or other sons. What was wanted was, to prevent occasional votes manufactured for a purpose, and the clause in the Irish Bill having that object in view, might be judiciously introduced into the Bill before them.

means to be excluded, for certainly such persons were on a par, in point of respect

the principal part of the incumbent's income being derived from Queen Anne's bounty.

Mr. James L. Knight had no doubt there were many cases such as had been described by the hon. Member, but a very few words would meet the difficulty, he would, therefore, propose, that the words " except in the right of any benefice," be added to the clause.

ability with the 101. householders on whom it was the main object of the Bill to confer the franchise. He must allow, however, that there would be considerable difficulty in meeting the case so as to exclude improper voters, and he doubted whether the words suggested by the noble Lord would remedy the evil. They had not heard from the noble Lord, however, the exact extent of property which he proposed should confer a vote, but if the 40s. possessor of the corpus of land was to vote, he saw no reason why the 40s. holder of the value of the land was to be deprived of that right. But then it was said, a devise might be fraudulently made; no doubt it might, and there would be great difficulty in distinguishing the fraudulent from the real transaction. If, however, by postponement the clause could be amended to meet the case, he should be happy to assist in attaining the object.

Lord John Russell observed, that he would freely consent to the adoption of these words.

The words ordered to stand part of the clause.

Lord Milton begged leave to move a further amendment. He saw no reason why parish clerks were not to have votes. His objection to the clause was, that it was one of disfranchisement, for no good purposes; he wished the words " or office" to be added after the word "benefice."

Sir Charles Wetherell said, the word office,' comprehended many other persons besides parish clerks, and with regard to these, any person who recollected the famous Middlesex election, knew what use was then made of the holders of such offices, humble as they were; but as such offices could not be acquired by fraud, he saw no reason why either parish clerks, sextons, or bell-ringers were to be excluded; if, therefore, the noble Lord would include the words "of office, place, or

Mr. Davies Gilbert was of opinion that the cases of hardship cited by the noble Lord would be very few, and the alteration he proposed would lead to great complication and fraud. In illustration of the manner in which it might operate, he would state a case that had occurred:-In Weymouth, where a devise constituted a vote, half a house was given to an old woman; of this half house she again made a devise, dividing it between 300 persons, every one of whom had thereby a vote. In Bristol also such practices were com-employment," he would vote with him, if mon. The hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke last had observed that he had heard no reason why the exact sum of 107. should be fixed upon, but the reason was that this sum was to confer the right of voting upon copyholders, and he thought freeholders for life ought to be placed in a similar situation.

Colonel Wood said, the clause was not so worded as to exclude fictitious freeholders only, as was the case in the Bill of last Session. In that there were some words which allowed fee-simple 40s. freeholders to vote, and he apprehended the effect of the present clause would be to exclude all such persons hereafter.

Lord Althorp assured the hon. and gallant Member that the words of the clause did not in any way whatever apply to the real 40s. freeholder.

Mr. Jones said, the operation of the clause might deprive some clergymen of their votes. He believed there were some cases of livings in Wales under the value of 107.,

he pressed the amendment to a division.

Lord John Russell objected to the amendment, for the reasons assigned by the hon. and learned Gentleman-that it would admit many more persons than the noble Lord intended; such hurried amendments were by no means desirable.

Lord Milton saw no reason why some selection of offices might not be made; he, however, would not press his amendment.

Two of the blanks were then filled up with the words "ten pounds," and "forty shillings," after the word "statutes or uses," were inserted.

On the question that the words "election" be omitted, and that in lieu thereof, the words "respective elections" be inserted,

Colonel Wood said, he had already suggested that the registry clauses should be separated from the other parts of the measure, and brought forward by themselves when the debate could be taken