portant, that such reflections should be separated from so delicate a discussion as that in which they were then engaged. Such a course would be most conducive to the attainment of peace and the security of property. It must be admitted that that subject, which involved the tranquil lity of the country and the security and stability of the Church establishment, required the most calm and deliberate discussion; and it was for these reasons that he deprecated all party and personal reflections, which were wholly inappropriate to the debate.

Lord Ellenborough, in explanation, stated, that his objection to the Committee was, that it was preliminary to a bill in which Ministers should declare the principles on which they proposed to act. He thought that the Ministers ought first to bring in a bill. The noble Marquis also was mistaken when he observed, that he had supported the Government in 1825. At that period, he had the weakness to put a certain degree of faith in the noble Marquis and his associates a weakness of which he had since had the good fortune to divest himself. As to the rest, the Committee on East-India affairs had never been proposed with a view of regulating the government of that country, but simply to procure information, of which there was great need, and he hoped, that when the India question was brought forward, the Ministry would honestly take the responsibility on themselves.

he would now re-state what his noble friend | such appointments. It would have been had said. One object was, to inquire better, and he thought it was most im whether the Composition Act should be made universally compulsory. Another was, to ascertain the propriety of making the landlord an instrument for securing the tithe. Again, the Committee were to consider how far it was practicable and expedient to give the Church the best of all securities, that of land. Now he would ask, had the noble Lord stated, or had he not, what were the views of Government? Had the Government attempted to dictate, their Lordships would have heard, he firmly believed, worse exclamations on the disrespect offered to the Committee; and the noble Lord himself, notwithstanding all his contempt for Committees, would, he had no doubt, have loudly raised his voice in vindication of their wounded dignity. The course Ministers pursued was that which had been uniformly adopted upon all great occasions, which was most consonant to the dignity of the House, and best calculated to meet the exigencies of the public service. On the renewal of the Bank Charter, on the restriction of the Currency, on the question of the East-India Company's Charter, Committees had been appointed, and in the latter instance on the recommendation of the noble Lord himself, not for the purpose of learning the noble Lord's definite views and intentions, but for the much wiser purpose of collecting information which he intended afterwards to use. But now the appointment of a Committee was a work of supererogation, or, if not a work of supererogation, an attempt to elude that responsibility which Ministers ought always to feel and acknowledge. The object of Ministers really was, to meet the difficulties of the question in the spirit of conciliation, giving to those interests of property which were involved in the question, the guarantee of a Parliamentary Committee, and shewing that they were determined to treat the interests of property, as they ought always to be treated, with the utmost delicacy and caution. He thought it was unnecessary and injudicious in the noble Earl who spoke immediately after the noble Viscount, to have mixed up individual allusions with the important matter then under consideration; and he could assure the noble Earl, that the appointment to which he had referred had been made upon purely professional grounds, like all similar legal appointments, and upon principles which regulated other governments in making

The Marquis of Lansdown said, he Committee on India affairs would most probably make a report with a recommendation to their Lordships, and therefore it was not wholly to procure information.

The Earl of Carnarvon did not mean to oppose the Committee, nor did he understand his noble friend to have done so, but he had hoped to hear some plan proposed by Ministers, which would be efficient, and equal to the danger which it was sought to avert. He certainly did not understand the noble Viscount who had proposed the Motion, to have stated any specific plan on the part of Government; but he was glad to hear from the noble Marquis, that Government had some such project in view. On this point, he perhaps did not distinctly understand what had fallen from the noble Viscount; but, at all events, he was pleased to hear that he was mistaken in supposing that the Government had no plan of

their own to propose; and the time was certainly arrived, when it was necessary to secure to the Irish clergy something like an adequate remuneration for their services, for under present circumstances it was notorious, that what they collected of tithes was not sufficient for their support; but such a plan, to be efficient, should be speedy, which it could not be if the power which the Executive ought to exercise were transferred to a Committee, whose inquiries must be protracted, and lead to endless delay. What had been proposed, or rather suggested, was quite insufficient. What ought first to be done was, to put down agitation. Any measure having that object in view should have his support. He was surprised at the great care and circumspection which had been used on this subject, particularly when it was on the part of those who used such speed on subjects which tended to increase agitation, and who were so prompt in their movements when they attempted to make and unmake Constitutions. He wished more caution had been practised upon those great occasions, and that greater promptness and energy had been shown in dealing with agitation and agitators in Ireland. However, he would vote for the Committee, but, as he said before, should have more readily voted for a bill embracing the topics which he had adverted to.

based on a system of wise policy. He knew the noble Earl too well to doubt that he would act fully up to the spirit of his declaration, and therefore hoped, that the measures of Ministers would obtain his support; at the same time he must observe, that the tone of his observations that evening was not much calculated to encourage a very sanguine expectation that he would be found among the active allies of the present Government. The noble Earl seemed to approve of the accusation of the noble Baron (Ellenborough), that Ministers, in bringing forward the present Motion, shrunk from their official responsibility. He denied the assertion. Ministers shrunk not from their responsibility, either as Members of Parliament or as guiding the executive Government of the country. In proposing the present Committee of Inquiry into the machinery of the tithe system in Ireland, they were necessarily responsible, in common with every other Member of the Legislature who sanctioned the inquiry; and that inquiry, be it understood, by no means relieved Ministers from the responsibility of the measure which they might hereafter deem it their duty to bring forward, as the result of the Committee's labours. Ministers, therefore, were made doubly responsible by the present Motion-in the first place, as Members of Parliament, in sanctioning the Motion for the Committee; Earl Grey had entertained a hope that and, in the next place, in their official a Motion brought forward with such mo- capacity, for any subsequent measure with deration as that this evening submitted which they might follow up the proposed to their Lordships by his noble friend- inquiry. Ministers, then, did not shrink one, too, so studiously divested of every from the responsibility attached to their appearance of mere party or political feel- situation: and the assertions of the noble ing, and which referred to a subject admit- Baron (Ellenborough) were as uncalled for ted on all hands to be surrounded with as they were incorrect. The noble Baron difficulties, and requiring the most delicate was in error in supposing that the ciraddress for its satisfactory adjustment, cumstance of a preliminary inquiry by would have been met with an equal spirit the Legislature at large relieved Minisof moderation by noble Lords opposite, and ters from the responsibility of any measure that all would have united in a spirit of to which that inquiry might lead. The conciliation in the devising and forwarding Committee of Inquiry, with respect to the a measure, at once calculated to preserve last or preceding renewal of the Bank the rights and privileges of the Established Charter, did not, for example, free the Church, and to remove a cause of discon- Government from the responsibility of the tent, and thence an impediment to the specific measure of renewal ; as, in the same tranquillity and prosperity of the sister way, Ministers were responsible for the country. He, therefore, was little pre-enactments in reference to the Currency, pared for the exhibition of angry party feeling indulged in by noble Lords opposite, and which answered no beneficial purpose whatever. The noble Earl who spoke last, said, that he was disposed to lend his support to the present Government, so far forth as their measures might seem to him

though these enactments were suggested by a Committee of Parliament. But, another noble Lord (Wicklow) thought, that the circumstance of there being in Ireland a systematic opposition to the payment of tithes, made it incumbent on Ministers to come at once forward with some legislative

remedy, for which they alone should be the law armed them, with more vigour and responsible. As he had stated, the pre-resolution. Ministers, he hoped he might vious inquiry would not relieve the Go- say, were not wanting in either-indeed, vernment from the responsibility of the their Lordships had a guarantee in the result. Besides that, the opposition to the high character of the present excellent payment of tithes in Ireland was not an chief governor of that country, that neiopposition to the principle of tithe, but a ther vigour nor resolution would be wantpractical impediment to the working of ing, whenever either might be required to the machinery, calling upon Parliament to check sedition, and put down all proceedinquire whether it was possible to devise ings dangerous to the peace and well-being some improvement in that machinery, of existing institutions. If new circumwhich would do away with the impediment stances should ever require an extraordinary in the way of its free operation. Such an exertion of the executive powers of the Coninquiry could only, it was evident, be effi-stitution, it was not to be doubted, that ciently made by a Committee of Parlia- so long as the Marquis of Anglesey was ment, and hence the present Motion. It the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that the was fair to presume, that its labours would Government would not shrink from having be speedily, as well as successfully, prose-recourse to it; at the same time, he was cuted its being appointed now before the Christmas recess, would enable it to send for witnesses, documents, &c., so as to be able to enter vigorously upon its labours after the recess. Neither were Ministers, in fairness, chargeable with the necessity of appointing the present Committee. The tithe in Ireland was an old and oft-urged grievance, which had only arrived at that height which precluded longer delay, with respect to the possibility of a remedy in its machinery, on the accession of the present Ministry to office. Such a remedy was now essential to the very peace of Ireland, and could not be put off without danger to the stability of the empire. No man was more anxious than he was to promote the prosperity of that fine country-no man more deeply regretted that tardiness with which justice was meted out to her. He deeply regretted the delay of that healing measure, which their Lordships had sanctioned some two years back; for he saw in the delay pro tanto a diminution of its efficiency. But while he lamented that the germs of civil dissension were allowed to grow up into a rich harvest of unconstitutional excitement in that country, he felt that he, at least, and those who acted with him during his political life, with respect to the Catholic Question, were not to blame. These germs of civil dissension, however, be their parentage what it might, were in active existence on his accession to office; so that all he had to apply himself to was, if he might so speak, to mitigate their symptoms, while he endeavoured to remove their proximate causes. This Ministers had endeavoured to effect to the utmost of their ability. The noble Earl (Carnarvon) opposite, blamed them for not having wielded the powers with which

not ashamed to declare, that he should much rather that tranquillity was preserved by means of conciliation than by force. It was a principle of his political creed-one that he had cherished for very many years, and would not then readily alter-that the best mode of checking sedition was, to remove all its causes or pretexts. This being done, all pretext for discontent removed, he would then employ with the utmost energy every constitutional force, which the preservation of public peace might require; but not, if possible, till then. On a recent occasion he had stated his unwillingness to apply to Parliament for new powers, to meet the contingencies of illegal associations, so long as the existing law was, in his mind, adequate to the preservation of social order. He felt the same reluctance with respect to illegal proceedings in Ireland. At the same time, he begged it to be distinctly understood, that if it should become necessary to have recourse to stronger laws than were at present in force, to the putting down all illegal proceedings and unconstitutional excitement in that country, he would at once apply to Parliament for them; and even, too, for severer laws than the enactment which had expired last session, and which he had permitted to drop to the ground, because, as he had stated to a noble Earl, he thought he saw the prospect of a return to tranquillity, which might be endangered by its renewal. The noble Earl (Wicklow) opposite, taunted Ministers by implication with sanctioning the Dublin Political Union and other irregular associations in Ireland, inasmuch as they were not prohibited by authority. In the same way, other noble Lords might charge them by impli cation, with sanctioning the proceedings of

a counter-association which had lately held | the Government. It was true, that a paa public meeting. The House would see, tent of precedence was bestowed upon that that the Government was thus exposed to Gentleman; but it was equally true, that the attacks of two antagonist parties, and it was a mark of preferment to which his could only do its duty by firmly holding professional reputation fully entitled him. its course, without lending itself to or When the energies, and public business countenancing either. He had read the abilities, and above all the great influence proceedings of the Dublin Political Union: of that Gentleman in Ireland were conthere could be but one opinion of their sidered, it would appear desirable, that violence, and of their mischievous tendency. those energies, and especially that influence, He had also read the Resolutions of the should be employed in the cause of good antagonist Association, and was bound to order; and hence it was the wish of Minsay, that they were no less objectionable, isters to attach him to the Government. and to be lamented by every well-wisher of The preferment which was bestowed upon good government. Thus, between the Mr. O'Connell, was only due to his profestwo violent and unconstitutional extremes, sional station; indeed, were that Gentlethe Government had only a middle course man's energies as much devoted to the cause of conciliation and firmness. In the eyes of good order as might be desired, there was of some noble Lords, it might perhaps be a no legal station in his country to which he matter of regret that Ministers did not might not fairly aspire. But no official ally themselves with either; but their situation was proffered to him, or, under so doing would be a breach of duty. the relations in which he stood to the Their course was different: it was, as he Government, could be proffered to him. had stated, one of firmness and desire to No offer was made to him of official apconciliate all, at the same time an inflexible pointment, which could enable him to say, determination to preserve peace and public that he rejected it; at least, if there was, tranquillity in Ireland; in doing which, he he was wholly ignorant of it, and he was counted on the support of the sound part sure that none such could have been offerof the community. But while they were ed that he would have sanctioned. He thus determined to assert the majesty of knew not whether this explicit declaration the law, he saw no reason why means satisfied the noble Earl (Wicklow), that might not be taken, as in the case of the he was in error as to negotiations with Mr. present Motion, to inquire into the cause O'Connell, to induce that Gentleman to of public discontent, and to endeavour to accept of office. No official appointment restore peace and tranquillity to a country was offered to that Gentleman, with his on which-to quote the King's Speech- (Earl Grey's) knowledge, or could have Providence had bestowed so many blessings. been offered by any one else which, under Yes, he repeated, all that was wanting was existing circumstances, he could sanction. social order, tranquillity, and good govern- He stated this with something like regret, ment, to raise a country so eminently dis- because the recent conduct of Mr. O'Continguished by the fertility of its soil, and nell cut off all hope that his energies and the intelligence and energies of its inhabit- influence would be directed in support of ants, to a level with the most favoured the efforts of Government, to contribute nation of the earth. It was to be hoped, that to the improvement and tranquillity of the powers with which the constitutional Ireland. In conclusion, he would only authorities were armed, would be equal to express a hope, that the Committee would the exigencies of the times; but if moder- exercise due diligence in its inquiries, and ation and firmness should unfortunately that when they should have been concluded, fail, Ministers would not shrink from hav- he hoped Ministers would be able to bring ing recourse to the Legislature for extraor- forward a measure which would, on the one dinary means, to meet extraordinary diffi- side, secure the rights and privileges of culties. He wished to observe, in reference the Church in Ireland, and, on the other, to the charge made against Ministers by the would remove a fruitful source of disconnoble Earl (Wicklow), that they had enter- tent from the minds of the people of that ed into negotiations with Mr. O'Connell, country. while they denounced his proceedings as contrary to law-that he did not deny, that he and his colleagues were desirous to enlist the energies and influence of that hon. and learned Gentleman on the side of

Viscount Melbourne regretted, that his statements had not been sufficiently clear to enable their Lordships to understand them. He only wished to say, that though his experience did not authorise him to

1

Motion agreed to, and Committee appointed.

assume the decided tone of the noble Lords | amount to no less a sum than 1,5001.; and opposite, yet he thought he had entered the petition set forth the various items which into a full explanation of the views of Go- went to make up that sum. Unfortunately vernment. With reference to the case al- this case was not altogether unparalleled luded to, of two individuals discharged after in the annals of the Court of Chancery. they had been convicted of conspiring Only a short time since, a case came before illegally to oppose tithes, he wished to the Master of the Rolls, in which the observe, that there were facts connected Brewers' Company were parties. The bill with the case which justified the remission was filed to recover 500, and the question of the punishment. afterwards arose, who was to pay the costs amounting to 9007. He (Mr. Spence) should consider himself called upon to dwell more on cases of so much enormity, but that he knew there was now the prospect of a speedy and effectual reform of those crying abuses. He was authorised to state, and indeed might state from his own knowledge, that one or more bills would be introduced shortly after the recess, either in that or the other House of Parliament, which he believed would effectually remedy the abuses in the Master's Office. Under these circumstances he did not consider himself called to dwell longer on the upon case detailed in the petition.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, December 15, 1831.

MINUTES.] Bills brought in. To authorize the exchange

of Ecclesiastical Lands; to amend the Laws relating to

state of the West Indies.

Sewers; to amend the Bankrupt Laws. Committee re-appointed. To inquire into the Commercial Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SPENCE, the Fees received by the Clerks of the Court of Chancery for three years past, distinguishing the sum each received for the taxation of Costs, and stating the largest amount ever received for the taxation of one Bill:-On the Motion of Mr. WILLIAM BROUGHAM, the amount of Fees received for the last three years for Office Copies of Ancient Records kept in the Tower, the Rolls Chapel, the Chapter House,

&c. :-- On the Motion of Mr. HUNT, the number of Persons confined in Prison for Smuggling in the United Kingdom; specifying the Offence for which each Prisoner was condemned; stating, if Married, the amount or number of each Person's Family kept by the Parishes, and to what Parishes they belong :-On the Motion of Mr. BERTRAM

victed, and the amount of each Fine in which he was con

EVANS, the Stamps used by the Newspapers and other

Publications for the last ten years; all the Stamps issued to the London and Provincial Papers in the year 1830; the number of Newspapers received from, and sent to the

Colonies; and the number and amount of those transmitted through the Clerks and Agents of the General Post Office.

Petitions presented. By Mr. L. HODGES, from Ramsgate, praying that the Inhabitant Householders of that Town

might have Votes for the Borough of Sandwich; by Mr. SPENCE, from John Cartman, for an alteration of the Law relative to the Concealment of the Birth of Children; and

from the Breeders of Horses, to render unnecessary all General Warranties.

COSTS IN CHANCERY.] Mr. Spence presented a Petition from Joseph Harrington, a Suitor in the Court of Chancery, complaining of the practice and proceedings in the Master's Office. The hon. Member stated, that the petitioner was interested in a will which was the subject of a dispute in the Court of Chancery. The result of the suit, was an Attorney's bill for costs to the amount of no less a sum than 7,000l. The petitioner had paid a part of this bill, which part he considered the whole amount fairly due but he had been advised that, if he objected to the amount charged, his only remedy was to have the bill of costs taxed. Upon inquiry, however, the petitioner discovered that the costs of taxation would

Mr. Daniel W. Harvey congratulated the House on the information just communicated, that a remedy was contemplated for the crying abuses of the Court of Chancery. He suggested that the taxation of costs in that Court should not be left to the Masters, who were Judges with salaries, amounting to 4,000l. or 5,0002. a-year, and ought to be better employed, but that an officer should be appointed, with a salary of 1,000l. whose exclusive duty it should be, to tax the Solicitors' costs. There was another point well worthy of consideration. At least forty per cent, or 3,000l. out of the bill of costs of 7,000l. referred to in the petition, he had no doubt, was expended by the Solicitor in fees to Counsel. Now, if a Solicitor was overpaid, upon the taxation he was compelled to return the amount so overpaid; but, according to the practice of the profession, the Counsel kept whatever they were paid, and were generally paid before they worked. In his opinion, the party ought to be enabled to demand and enforce restitution of all fees improperly paid to Counsel, upon the certificate of the taxing officer. He was happy, however, to believe that the subject was now in the hands of those who would remedy it, and no greater benefit could be conferred on the public, than to make the Courts of Equity equitable themselves.

Mr. Spence said, the remedy for the abuse of which the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Harvey) complained, was, to