Page images
PDF
EPUB

temptation to those among the lower classes | make known the importance of this discovery; who had the care of their aged and infirm rewe have said how the study of anatomy might latives, to neglect and ill-treat them. It be facilitated and shortened by means of these was not his wish to impede any measure preparations, the necessity of dissection of bodies superseded, and a great assistance that it might be proper to bring before this House with a view to its undergoing Dr. Auzoux has been constantly engaged in his afforded to practitioners. Since that period full discussion. One of the objections discovery, and now he has brought it to comhe had to the Bill arose from a statement plete perfection. The hospital of Marine, of made by the hon. Gentleman. The hon. War, of the Colonies, and a great number of Gentleman stated the other night, that a public establishments, both abroad and in surgeon never performed an operation until France, are now taking advantage of this he had practised on a dead body. That was happy discovery. Let us hope, for the sake of a most alarming fact. For if a medical humanity, that the departments will not be man had a capital operation to perform, when it becomes indispensably necessary that long without this resource, and that at a period he must send Jack to kill Tom, in order everything loathsome should be put aside and that he might cure Will. He must, in removed, the Councils-General will compreorder to procure a subject, send out a per- hend the wishes of the Institute, and the intenson to "Burke" another, or else to rob the tions of the Academy of Medicine, by voting grave. There was another part of the Bill the necessary funds, that at least one model of to which he had an objection. It proposed artificial anatomy may be at the disposal of to give to the Secretary of State a power to each principal town in the departments."" appoint three inspectors, one for the metro- He was not in error when he stated that polis, one for Edinburgh, and one for Glas- they were endeavouring to abolish disgow. To do any good, many more in- section in France. When the Bill went spectors ought to be appointed. A much into Committee, he would propose that no better plan to extend the knowledge of surgeon whatsoever should be allowed to surgery would be, to open the hospitals in enter a dissecting-room, or use a dissectingthe country, instead of keeping them, as knife, till he had registered his name, and now, in a state of close monopoly. He had given an undertaking to allow his body, received a letter from Worcester, stating when he died, to be dissected. Heshould that no surgeon is allowed to go into the certainly oppose this Bill with all his powers. county hospital, unless some favourite, In consequence of the opposition which he without paying 521. In several parts of had already offered to it, he had been atthe country-Exeter for instance there tacked by the public press. A surgeon had had been a partial opening of the hospitals; threatened to dissect him; but let him but only think of these gentlemen, who take care, at least, that he did not Burke talked so much about the science of ana- him first. He venerated the practice of tomy, and yet said nothing of the gross surgery. He believed that the members monopoly that excluded the students from of that profession were in general very benearly all the hospitals in the country. It nevolent persons; but he observed that was a remarkable circumstance, that while, they never neglected to receive their fees. in this country, exertions were making to He would again recommend that surgeons extend the science of anatomy by practising should set the example of giving up their on the human body, in France they were own bodies for dissection; but he had no endeavouring to abolish the dissecting sys-objection that those surgeons should be extem altogether. A letter had been pub-empted who did not receive fees.

lished in the newspapers, from Dr. Payne, of Nottingham, to the hon. member for Bridport, which shews this to be the case. It was this:

"Dear Friend--I take the liberty of sending you the following lines which I have translated from the Paris Paper, the Constitutionnel of the first of December:

"The Minister of Public Works, charged also with the superintendence of the Arts and Sciences, has addressed to the Councils-General of the different departments throughout France, the report of the Royal Academy of Medicine upon the artificial corpse of Dr. Auzoux. We have been among the first to

Bill read a second time.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Monday, January 23, 1832.

On the Motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGH, a Letter of the Select Committee of Supercargoes in China to the Directors of the East India Company, dated the 31st of May, 1851, with the Consultations relating thereto; another of the same nature, dated the 18th of June, 1831; and Letters from the Directors of the East India Company to the Select Committee, dated the 9th of December, 1831, and 13th of January, 1832.

MINUTES.] Returns ordered.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, January 23, 1832.

MINUTES.] Bills brought in. By Mr. WILLIAM BROUGHAM, to amend and enlarge the provisions of the Act 1st William , cap. 36, for altering and amending the Law regarding

4th,

Commitments by Courts of Equity for Contempt. Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. PENDARVIS, of all Copper, and Copper Ore, Exported and Imported, for the year ending 5th January, 1832, distinguishing the different Ports from which it was exported and imported; also of Lead and Tin:--On the Motion of Mr. HODGSON, of the duty paid on Glass for the year ending 5th January,

1832, distinguishing the amount paid for England, Scotland, and Ireland, and on each description of Glass, and a

similar return of the drawbacks allowed on exportation; of the quantity of Wine and other Liquors imported in Glass

Bottles: On the Motion of Sir H. PARNELL, the total

expense to the Public of the Royal Military Asylums at Chelsea, Isle of Wight, Southampton, Hibernian School, since their first establishment to the 31st of December, inclusive); also, total number of Recruits furnished to the Army by these Establishments, specifying the number of those which became Non-commissioned Officers, as far as Mr. Brook T. Ottley as Trustee for the Crown in settling the affairs of the late Colonel Browne, as General Agent for Recruiting, stating the Salary and Allowances paid to him in each year; stating, also, what other public Offices or em

1830 (expenditure on buildings, value of grounds, &c.,

may conveniently be ascertained; the date of appointment of

ployment he held during that time, and the Salary and Allowances paid to him for such Offices in each of the

years he was Trustee; of the Letter of Appointment of Mr. Brook T. Ottley as Trustee; statement of the balances

due to the Public by the late Colonel Browne at the time

of his decease, the Amount which has been repaid in each year, and the balance now due to the Public, and what assets or security the Government have for the balance.

stating the dates of their respective admissions to the Corporation, with their residences at the time of their admission, and their residences at the date of the Return, and their several additions, occupations, or business:-By way of rental, of the estates and properties of the Corporation of Coleraine, in Ireland; shewing the annual profit-rents received thereout, and containing the dates of the leases, deeds, or other instruments, under which the same are held; the head-rents payable for same, the leases, deeds, or grants made by said Corporation; the parties' names to whom same were so made; the dates and tenure thereof; the consideration given for same; the rents, fees, and duties reserved therein; and the person or persons in whom the same are now vested:-By the proper officer or officers of the Corporation of Coleraine, in Ireland, of the several officers of said Corporation, the salaries, or other perquisites payable to, or received by such officer, or officers, and the duties performed by him or them respectively."

Sir John Brydges objected to the motion, the latter part of it especially. He alluded to that which referred to "leases, or other instruments, under which Corporation property was held." Corporation property was not public, but private property, and he thought that the worthy Alderman was exceeding the line of his duty in making the Motion.

Mr. O'Connell contended, that the return ought to be ordered, for Corporation property was not private, but public property. It had been left for purposes of charity. The returns might be necessary for future discussions on the Irish Reform Bill, and as a particular family had great influence in the Corporation, it might be necessary to examine them, to prevent any misapplication of property.

BOROUGH OF COLERAINE.] Mr. Alderman Copeland moved an Address to his Majesty, for "Returns by the proper officer or officers of the Corporation of the borough of Coleraine, in Ireland, of the several persons admitted, elected, or sworn as Freemen of the said Corporation, on and previous to the 1st of September, 1830; distinguishing those persons to whom the freedom was granted, those who were elected or admitted freemen, and those who were duly sworn freemen, with their residences and additions at the time of their admission, and at the time of their return:-Of persons admitted, elected, or sworn Freemen, or to whom the freedom was granted in the borough of Coleraine, in Ireland, from 1st September, 1830, to 1st January, 1831:-Of persons admitted, elected, or sworn freemen, or to whom the freedom of the borough of Coleraine, in Ireland, was granted, from 1st January, 1831, to 1st January, 1832. the several persons who had petitioned for, claimed, or personally demanded, the free dom of the Corporation of Coleraine, and of those who were refused admittance to same, from 1st January, 1801, to 1st January, 1832: Of the several Aldermen, and other Mr. Alderman Wood said, all the partiCommon Councilmen of said Corporation culars relating to the property of the Corof the borough of Coleraine now existing;poration of London were already before the VOL. IX. Third

Series

Of

Mr. Crampton said, the hon. and learned Member was mistaken when he said the estates held by the Corporation of Coleraine had been granted for charitable purposes. The property in question was as much the private property of the Corporation, as any property which belonged to any individual Member of that House, and, therefore, the House had no right to inquire into the particulars of it. The city of London, and every Corporation in the kingdom, might be subject to the same visitation, if such a precedent were established.

2 A

House. A part of the property of the Corporations of Coleraine and Londonderry had been granted by the Irish Society of London, for corporate purposes solely, and it was, therefore, necessary to see that it had not been converted to electioneering purposes.

Mr. Alderman Copeland said, he moved for the returns on behalf of the inhabitants of Coleraine, and he believed the statement made by the worthy Alderman, relating to the property of the Corporation of Coleraine, was correct.

Mr. Paget should always be ready to oppose the doctrine that "Corporation property" was the same as private property. It was generally left in trust for the benefit of the local community, or for the use of the public at large, and it was too often perverted from its proper uses. If there was nothing wrong, there could be no occasion for concealment; he, therefore, trusted, in spite of the cry of Corporation robbery" the whole facts relating to such property would be brought to light. He would certainly vote for the Motion.

Mr. Crampton said, the property of Corporations was of two kinds-sometimes it was held in trust for public or charitable uses, and upon other occasions it was at the absolute disposal of the respective Corporations. This latter description of property the House had, in his opinion, no right to inquire into, but with regard to the former, he apprehended the law was strong enough to make the Corporations liable for any misapplication or abuse of it; this was the law of the land, and he, therefore, thought the terms of the Motion would open the door to the introduction of a principle of an improper character.

Mr. O'Connell was convinced that the private property of Corporations, spoken of by the hon. and learned Gentleman, was often expended in a most improper manner. He hoped, however, that would speedily be remedied by the Bill now in progress, which was intended to prevent the application of Corporate funds to election purposes. He was very desirous to come at the particular facts with regard to this property, because he had heard that an estate had been alienated by the Corporation in favour of a member of a particular family, for a very inadequate price.

Colonel Beresford, as a member of the family alluded to, would be glad to support the Motion, being quite confident, that by the production of the documents asked for, he be able to disprove the insinua

[blocks in formation]

REFORM-PETITIONS.] Sir John Newport presented a Petition from the Mayor, Aldermen, Sheriff's, and Common Council of the county of the city of Waterford, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The Petition was couched in firm, but respectful language. The petitioners stated it as their opinion, that the preservation of the freedom of the country, and the maintenance of the Constitution, materially depended on the speedy passing of the Reform Bill. He was quite sure the sentiments embodied in the petition were those entertained by the great mass of the Irish people, who considered that Reform ought not to be put on the footing of a favour granted to that country, but that it ought to be considered as their right, and as such conceded.

Mr. O'Connell supported the prayer of the petition; the Reform which Ireland required was an effectual and just measure; and she would insist upon Representation being granted to her upon the same principles as were now applied to England. Her constituency must be more extended, and the number of her Memt ers increased, and as the Bill before the House did not meet these objects, it was looked upon as an insult to the Irish people, and the same beneficial results, therefore, could not be expected to follow from it as the English Bill was calculated to effect. He wished for no sacrifices from England; he did not desire to lop off one of her Representatives; he trusted the great majority of the Irish Members would support the English Bill; but he wished to see the question of Irish Reform there discussed on its own merits, and not by the merits of her connection with England.

Sir John Newport said, that his support of the English Reform Bill was totally independent of the Irish Bill, and he wished to see her stand by herself, and not be judged by the question of locality. In presenting the petition, he had carefully abstained from making any remarks on the Bill for reforming the Representation of Ireland.

Mr. Sheil said, that he had no wish to disturb the number of the real Representatives of England, but he desired to see such boroughs as Petersfield, where there were not more than 1,495 inhabitants (less than in some of the places in Ireland which were

totally unrepresented), and such boroughs also as Midhurst, deprived of their Members, and he desired to see those Members given to Ireland.

Mr. O'Connell declared, if the House would grant no Reform whatever to Ireland, still he would support the Bill for England. He, therefore, trusted the hon. and learned member for Louth would not vex himself, and embarrass his countrymen, by summing up the fractions of the rotten boroughs of England.

Mr. Sheil begged to ask his hon. and learned friend, if he wished to see the gross numbers of the House of Commons increased.

Mr. O'Connell: Certainly.
Petition to be printed.

impossible not to acknowledge, that it was of such vast importance that it ought to attract the earliest attention of that House. Indeed the time was not, he thought, far distant, when it would be necessary that we should revise our own Poor-laws, which contained many very objectionable provisions. It deserved to be remarked, that the present petition was similar to one sent from the same place last year, but that was only signed by 800 persons, while this was signed by 6,000.

Mr. James Grattan concurred in the propriety of speedily taking the subject into consideration, and he did not think it would be an improper basis on which to found the superstructure, that Tithes and Church property should bear a large proportion of the charge for the support of the poor throughout Ireland. He trusted the Committee now sitting on the subject would recommend that.

Mr. O'Connell said, as the subject of the provision for the poor in Ireland had been started, he should now state, not by the way of giving a notice formally on the subject, but to prevent any one being taken by surprise, that he should to-morrow, before five o'clock, propose that Lord Killeen should be added to the members of the Committee above-stairs sitting on the subject of Church property in Ireland, and that, if opposed in that motion, he should certainly divide the House upon it.

POOR LAWS AND TITHES (IRELAND.) Lord Morpeth rose to present a Petition which it was necessary he should preface with a very few observations. The petition had been agreed to at a meeting convened at the Court-house at Leeds, for the purpose of addressing the Houses of Parliament, to take into its consideration the best mode of immediately applying some measures of relief to the poor of Ireland, by the establishment of Poor-laws in that country. The petitioners were not only respectable, but so eager to affix their signatures, that in the short space of two days not less than 6,000 persons had signed the petition he now presented. They Mr. Hume thought that it was merely were determined not to permit any miscon- an act of justice to make provision for the struction to be put on their object or mo- poor of Ireland. He would not, however, tive, and, therefore, prefixed to the prayer recommend that that object should be of their petition a request that the House effected by the introduction of such a would, previously to attempting the estab-system of Poor-laws as existed in this lishment of a provision for the poor, make a legislative arrangement for the application of the Church lands and Church property, in a due proportion to the purpose for which it was undoubtedly originally set apart-namely, the maintenance and relief of the poor. He thought the subject worthy of consideration.

Mr. Strickland acknowledged that he had once advocated the extension of the Poor-laws to Ireland, but, on a due consideration of the subject, he felt, if such a provision were made by Parliament, it must not take place until the question relating to tithes was settled, and then must be strictly defined and limited; nor should such a system of Poor-laws be introduced into Ireland as were now in operation in this country. It was a subject of considerable delicacy and difficulty, yet it was

country. That system had operated most mischievously in England; and before they could place the people in that situation of industrious prosperity in which they ought to stand, it would be necessary to new-model those laws. The tithe system had been most oppressive in Ireland; but he considered the tithe question to be effectually settled in that country. The people would no longer pay tithes. The House might vote as it pleased, but there was an end to the system; for the people were unanimously resolved not to pay tithes. What was the next great evil? Why, Church property; and if Ministers were anxious that Ireland should be pacified, they would institute a rigid and efficient inquiry, in order that they might see how far that property could be rendered available for the benefit of the people. H

should be glad if that property were applied to beneficial public purposes. At the same time, he would provide liberally for the clergy-he meant to say, for that portion of them who worked. Ministers ought not to wait until the Legislature took up this subject, but should at once take it up themselves. Church property was public property, in every sense of the word, and he would carry the whole of it to the credit of the Exchequer, and only pay out of it those who earned their salaries.

Ire

worse in Ireland than in England.
land was disturbed from one end to the
other by the tithe system. He was not a
sectarian, and, therefore, did not feel pe-
culiarly aggrieved. He only felt himself
called upon to say a few words in con-
sequence of what fell from the hon. Mem-
ber who had last spoken. In six counties
of Ireland-Kilkenny, Wexford, Tippe-
rary, Carlow, Queen's County, and Kil-
dare-the system of tithes was actually at
an end. The people would not pay them,
they had come to the resolution not to pay
this unjust and oppressive tax. They were
united to evade the payment of tithes,
but they did not break the law. The
system could not last. The goods taken on
distraint could not be sold. There were
eight or ten law processes by which the
payment of tithes could be enforced, but
they were all evaded. The opposition
was given by the peasantry. He knew
one parish in Kildare, in which the people
had consented to pay 4d. an acre legally to
resist the payment of tithes, and they de-
clared, that they would rather subscribe 28.
or 5s. an acre than not resist the payment.

Sir John Johnstone said, he had been requested to support the petition, but he could by no means agree with the whole extent of its prayer. He was most desirous that the question should be settled as speedily as possible, and saw no reason why Church property as well as lay should not contribute equally to the provision to be made for the Irish poor.

Mr. John Weyland said, he desired to see a system of Poor-laws extended to Ireland, but he did not desire to see the whole charge of maintaining the poor fall upon the tithes and revenues of the Irish Church. The burthen ought to be shared in a just proportion by the proprietors of the land. It was equally unfair to say, as the petitioners did, "Don't redress the misery in Ireland, arising out of the want of Poor-laws, until you settle the questions of Tithe and Church property." The hon. member for Middlesex had told them exultingly, that the people of Ireland had settled the question of tithes-that they unanimously refused to pay them. They disobeyed the law, and certainly their disobedience ought not to be pointed at with approbation. Such language as that which they had just heard was too often used in that House, and that language he would always most strenuously oppose. If laws were bad, let them be altered and amended in the regular way; but it would be a disgrace to them as English gentlemen, and Sir Edward Sugden said, it appeared Members of the House of Commons, if from the remarks made by the hon. memthey were to concede any point of this ber for Carlow, that the people, in difspecies of domination. Were they, because a ferent parts of Ireland, resisted the paynumber of people broke the laws, to yield ment of tithes, and evaded the law. Now obedience to them, and say, "We will alter he conceived that those who could enthe law conformably to your wishes?" courage or defend such a system were the He was ready to give the situation of the worst subjects of the King, and the worst poor of Ireland all the advantage of a enemies of the country. He would ask, fair and deliberate inquiry; but he would whether, from the statement which had not bow to any species of intimidation. It been made, they were to infer that Ireland was a question of momentous conse- was in so peaceable a state, and disposed to quence to the well-being of the State at be so obedient to the law, as to render it all times, whether combinations of this wise, safe, or prudent to grant to that kind should not be compelled to give way country so great an additional extent of to the laws of the land, before even a ne-franchise as was contemplated by the Bill cessary measure of reform or redress were even agitated. He, therefore, for one, was thankful to his Majesty's Ministers for having put this subject in a train of inquiry.

Mr. Blackney said, the statements made by the hon. member for Middlesex were quite correct; the tithe system was much

then before the House. Would not this accession of political power tend to increase the existing evil?

Mr. O'Connell said, that judging from the observation which had just been made by the learned Gentleman, it would seem that he had not read the Irish Reform Bill. If he looked at the Bill, he would find that

« PreviousContinue »